Foam in kettle from aerating

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laserghost

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I always aerate the hell out of the wort after it gets below 140 F during cooling, and I recently used a mixer/wine degasser that attaches to my drill. It worked great, had a nice whirlpool going, and whipped up a great foamy white froth. Most of the froth got left in the kettle while transferring to the fermentor, so I'm wondering:

What exactly is the froth? Is it just wort or is it some kind of protein material? Am I missing out by not getting that stuff in the fermentor or does it not matter?
 
Sure it is, but I can only guess at this one.. I think that froth is formed mostly by proteins and you are not loosing too much by leaving it behind.
I wouldn't bother with it, and that is probably one reason why there is lack of responses...
 
It is definitely proteins, and it's the same proteins that are going to form your head and lacing later down the line, so you want to make sure it gets into the fermenter as well. I always just aerate IN the fermenter instead of in the boil kettle.
 
thanks fellas, so that's where my lacing went. i'm gonna try aerating in the fermenter and see if it improves head retention/lacing.
 
once the beer foam is made it (the proteins that make up the foam) won't be available later so it does not matter that the foam stayed in the kettle. you can see how this works by shaking a quantity of beer in a container. the beer will foam, the foam will subside and subsequent shaking will make less and less foam until it will not foam up at all. i put 8 oz of some sort of dextrin (wheat malt, flaked barley also work)malt in most of my beers and it really helps with head retention but it's only one part of the puzzle, good mash conversion, good hot/cold break, yeast health, fermentation temps all make a contribution to good beer foam.
 
interesting. i think i'm doing fairly well on the hot/cold break front, as well as mash conversion, yeast health, and ferm temps all seem pretty good.

i have nice foam on my beers and it also lasts a decent amount of time. but i have been foaming the s*%$ out of it in the kettle.

i've been thinking that i'd like to start using O2 to oxygenate, so i wonder what affect that will have on this front.
 
eastoak said:
once the beer foam is made it (the proteins that make up the foam) won't be available later so it does not matter that the foam stayed in the kettle. you can see how this works by shaking a quantity of beer in a container. the beer will foam, the foam will subside and subsequent shaking will make less and less foam until it will not foam up at all. i put 8 oz of some sort of dextrin (wheat malt, flaked barley also work)malt in most of my beers and it really helps with head retention but it's only one part of the puzzle, good mash conversion, good hot/cold break, yeast health, fermentation temps all make a contribution to good beer foam.
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That's because you're degassing the carbed beer. I would be willing to bet that you could foam and force carb the same sample over and over without losing the result.

Biology likes to be everywhere; if there's enough of the right protein in the beer to form a good head, there's a whole lot of it in the whole beer.
 
HIlife said:
That's because you're degassing the carbed beer. I would be willing to bet that you could foam and force carb the same sample over and over without losing the result.

Biology likes to be everywhere; if there's enough of the right protein in the beer to form a good head, there's a whole lot of it in the whole beer.
Click to expand...

i see your point but you can get fresh wort to foam and it has no CO2 in it. i have a sodastream CO2 dispenser i'll have to try this while re carbonating the sample, i think it will still show that the foam proteins are finite.
 
eastoak said:
i see your point but you can get fresh wort to foam and it has no CO2 in it. i have a sodastream CO2 dispenser i'll have to try this while re carbonating the sample, i think it will still show that the foam proteins are finite.
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Imagine a bottle of soapy water. If you bubbled air through it (a la carbonation being released from beer), it would be foamy at the top until you stopped the air flow. Eventually the foam would subside but it would still be soap water and it would still foam up if you put more air through it.

Proteins in the beer act like the soap by altering the surface tension of the liquid, allowing bubbles to hold up at the air-liquid interface. It's the protein in the whole beer that gives it that property, not only a thin layer at the top. The soap isn't consumed when you foam it up and neither are the beer proteins.

I've never tried but I'd bet that if you just shook the crap out of a flat beer with good head retention, you'd get a foamy mess. If the beer couldn't get it up to begin with, you probably wouldn't get any bubbles at all.
 
Well don't worry about the foam too much.
I use a paint mixer and do about what you are doing, but I do it after it's in the fermenting bucket.

If you primary in a carboy I can see why you do it that way, but if not you should just do it in the fermenting bucket and be done with it.

I did just get my O2 system in the mail today though, so my days of trying not to let the mixer hit the side of the bucket and leave scratches are over!
More oxygen and none of hassle.
 
HIlife said:
Imagine a bottle of soapy water. If you bubbled air through it (a la carbonation being released from beer), it would be foamy at the top until you stopped the air flow. Eventually the foam would subside but it would still be soap water and it would still foam up if you put more air through it.

Proteins in the beer act like the soap by altering the surface tension of the liquid, allowing bubbles to hold up at the air-liquid interface. It's the protein in the whole beer that gives it that property, not only a thin layer at the top. The soap isn't consumed when you foam it up and neither are the beer proteins.

I've never tried but I'd bet that if you just shook the crap out of a flat beer with good head retention, you'd get a foamy mess. If the beer couldn't get it up to begin with, you probably wouldn't get any bubbles at all.
Click to expand...

beer foam is not really the same thing as soap bubbles, if you let a bucket of soap dry out then add water to the bucket, it will make bubbles again. not true with beer foam which depends on amphipathic polypeptides from the malt to form and once they are used up you will not get more foam procuced. CO2 does help in the creation for foam but without the peptides it does not matter.
 
I'd like to start using pure O2 but can't spend a fortune on it and don't know what I should get to get started.
 
eastoak said:
beer foam is not really the same thing as soap bubbles, if you let a bucket of soap dry out then add water to the bucket, it will make bubbles again. not true with beer foam which depends on amphipathic polypeptides from the malt to form and once they are used up you will not get more foam procuced. CO2 does help in the creation for foam but without the peptides it does not matter.
Click to expand...

I would just be very surprised that the malt peptides would get "used up" by foaming. They're not going anywhere unless you're skimming/drinking the foam off. Soap bubbles are also formed by the super-amphipathic (hydrocarbon salt) soap molecules affecting the surface tension of the liquid. Proteins are less stable but not in an "oh my god we made bubbles, we must explode" kind of way.
 
The mr wizard article on beer foam and retention mentioned there being a finite amount of foam so to speak in the beer. He said this is why it is bad to shake kegs to force carbonate. I do this with many beers and in a recent competition many of my beers were dinged as having no head retention. Not sure if that was the cause but I probably won't be shaking them anymore and just waiting.
 
laserghost said:
I'd like to start using pure O2 but can't spend a fortune on it and don't know what I should get to get started.
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I got This from Williams Brewing. Tanks for it are 8-10$ at any hardware store. works great!

Also, this Brew Strong show discusses head retention in depth, was a good listen.
 
Thanks fellas.

@dalisx – I've seen that system and might go that route … you just hit it for a minute or so to guess at the ppms?

@helibrewer – would the medical regulator (this work? http://bit.ly/TVu7Gx ) give me a better idea of how many ppms I'm adding? From the photos I'm not sure how I'd dispense the oxygen (a hose?).

Ok I'm about to quit typing on my phone and grab a computer to search for some links on the D type tank and medical regulator.
 
I have read that a lot of people don't think HSA is a real concern and I haven't experienced it myself but I usually hear it described as not being an issue unless you really create a ton of foam. If you are generating that much foam at 140F aren't you intentionally generating HSA?
 
corb5309 said:
I have read that a lot of people don't think HSA is a real concern and I haven't experienced it myself but I usually hear it described as not being an issue unless you really create a ton of foam. If you are generating that much foam at 140F aren't you intentionally generating HSA?
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no.
 
since starting this thread i have stepped up to using pure o2 to aerate and i've upgraded my immersion chiller so problem solved!
 

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