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Old 01-14-2013, 04:31 PM   #21
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Just to be clear, I'm not saying that FWH don't contribute bitterness. I've had beers analyzed that were all FWH and the same amount at 60 as the only hop additions. The FWH beers actually measured about 10% more IBU, but in a blind triangle tasting they were generally perceived to taste less bitter. If I'm making an AP/AIPA, I want a big slap of hop bitterness. Yooper saying that she doesn't like high sulfate beers is a clue to the fact that she likes a smoother, mellower bitterness. It's all about your own tastes, and since it's your beer you can make it taste like whatever you like. For me, I've found that neither FWH bittered beers (or all late hop beers, for that matter) don't give me the bitterness I like.

And Yoop, I hope you ALWAYS feel free to disagree with me.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:33 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ArcLight View Post
You are free to do what you want but traditional First Wort Hopping involves the flavoring or aroma hop, not the bittering hop.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try whatever you like, experimentation is good.
But it's confusing to see a term being used in an imprecise way.
maybe "FWH - with bittering hops" as opposed to "First Wort Hopping"

This is an excerpt from Palmers "How to Brew".

>>Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions.

And this is one thing I very much disagree with John about. You can use ANY hops like the flavor of for FWH. I use high alpha hops for it more often than low alpha.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny

And this is one thing I very much disagree with John about. You can use ANY hops like the flavor of for FWH. I use high alpha hops for it more often than low alpha.
Agreed--I love to FWH with Chinook! Plus, I'd agree with Denny (not that he needs it) that if you want a strong bitterness, you need a 60min add as well. On my Imperial hoppy beers, I actually do 'em all--FWH, 60, 15, FO. Unbelievable hop character!
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that FWH don't contribute bitterness. I've had beers analyzed that were all FWH and the same amount at 60 as the only hop additions. The FWH beers actually measured about 10% more IBU, but in a blind triangle tasting they were generally perceived to taste less bitter. If I'm making an AP/AIPA, I want a big slap of hop bitterness. Yooper saying that she doesn't like high sulfate beers is a clue to the fact that she likes a smoother, mellower bitterness. It's all about your own tastes, and since it's your beer you can make it taste like whatever you like. For me, I've found that neither FWH bittered beers (or all late hop beers, for that matter) don't give me the bitterness I like.

And Yoop, I hope you ALWAYS feel free to disagree with me.
Denny, you're so gracious when we "argue"!

As much as I LOVE IPAs (my favorite style), the beers I drink mass quantities of all are hoppy with a "smoother" bitterness. As Denny said, I like lower sulfate in my hoppy beers, as I perceive a "harsher" bitterness from a higher sulfate water in my brewing water. I like a smooth, mellower bitterness, but with moderate to intense hoppy flavors.
I find that FWH indeed gives enough IBUs for my taste. As Denny's testing proves, FWH tests out at about 10% higher IBUs than 60 minute additions, although blind testing shows that it's perceived as less bitter. It's plenty bitter for me, but it's smoother and mellower. I highly recommend that each brewer decide for themselves. Some love very high sulfate levels (350 ppm in Mosher's ideal pale ale water profile!), some love lower sulfate. Some love intense bitterness, some love it less intense but still "firm".


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And this is one thing I very much disagree with John about. You can use ANY hops like the flavor of for FWH. I use high alpha hops for it more often than low alpha.
Yes, I agree here with Denny. But I think it depends on the beer and what you're making. It makes sense to FWH with columbus or chinook when you're making an IPA, but not a pilsner for example.

High AAU hops are common for FWH for me.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:51 AM   #25
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To each their own I guess. Even at a buck and a half a pint on tap I won't buy this beer because to me it is like biting into an unpeeled grapefruit. Nasty bitter but I guess it must be my 'buds'.
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/fat-hea...er-ipa/101856/

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Old 01-15-2013, 12:13 PM   #26
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To each their own I guess. Even at a buck and a half a pint on tap I won't buy this beer because to me it is like biting into an unpeeled grapefruit. Nasty bitter but I guess it must be my 'buds'.
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/fat-hea...er-ipa/101856/
And what's funny is that just last night I was telling Bob that when we get down to Ohio again, that we have to get another growler of that! I LOVE that beer, and it's one of my favorite IPAs around.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcLight View Post
You are free to do what you want but traditional First Wort Hopping involves the flavoring or aroma hop, not the bittering hop.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try whatever you like, experimentation is good.
But it's confusing to see a term being used in an imprecise way.
maybe "FWH - with bittering hops" as opposed to "First Wort Hopping"

This is an excerpt from Palmers "How to Brew".

>>Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions.
This may be the "traditional" technique, but I think Palmer misses the mark when he states it as a rule rather than explaining what's actually happening in the process. I'm looking to understand FWH, not use some hard fast rule. I that's truly "how to brew", understand a process then cater it to your own taste and style. If we followed all the rules, what would be the point of making our own beer?
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:58 PM   #28
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This may be the "traditional" technique, but I think Palmer misses the mark when he states it as a rule rather than explaining what's actually happening in the process. I'm looking to understand FWH, not use some hard fast rule. I that's truly "how to brew", understand a process then cater it to your own taste and style. If we followed all the rules, what would be the point of making our own beer?
Here's one better for ya: read Stan Hieronymous' new book, "For the Love of Hops". He explains some new research that shows insights into HOW and WHY the FWH process does what it does. Better than a rule, b/c if you know the process you're more likely to accurately produce what you plan.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:12 AM   #29
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So let's say hypothetically I'm brewing a batch using a hop variety with 10% AA. The normal recipe calls for 1 oz for :60, 1 at :15 and one at knock out. If I wanted to use the same 3 ounces in this recipe and not increase the bitterness, how would I change the hop schedule?

Also, if this were an extract batch, could you just heat it to 155 for :30 minutes or so before boiling and have it work the same as FWH?

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Old 01-16-2013, 04:26 AM   #30
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And what's funny is that just last night I was telling Bob that when we get down to Ohio again, that we have to get another growler of that! I LOVE that beer, and it's one of my favorite IPAs around.
What's really frustrating to me is I was drinking some Belle's Two Hearted last night thinking that if only it weren't so bitter it would be a fantastic beer. Greg, of Pump House fame, told me that they changed it because it didn't used to be that bitter and he didn't like the change either. I guess I know the next clone to look up......
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