Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Exploring "no chill" brewing
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-27-2009, 02:40 AM   #531
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,756
Liked 73 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucke View Post
This wasn't meant to diss your chart. I use it, it works... all good.

But regarding *just bittering hops*, for someone doing a 60 minute boil- instead of deducting 20 minutes from the boil time, why not add 20 minutes (in theory- just within one's brewing software) to the time one boils the bittering hops to arrive at the correct AAs? Then, boil for the correct time.

OK, granted, I'm a cheap bastard and will try to save a nickel where possible.

Anyone see a flaw?
Like I said in my post... "If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill."

Yes, with purely bittering hops you can do that. You wont realize any appreciable difference in IBU utilization between say 60 and 80 minutes but there is no reason not to use that extra little bit of credit.

For example:
1oz of 12AA hops at 60 minutes is about 21.7 IBUs
1oz of 12AA hops at 80 minutes (no chill 60 min. addition) is about 22.9 IBUs

So, you effectively gained 1.2 IBUs, meaning that you could use .05oz less hops.
__________________

The Pol is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 04:26 AM   #532
McCuckerson
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Zebulon, North Carolina
Posts: 655
Liked 11 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
Like I said in my post... "If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill."

Yes, with purely bittering hops you can do that. You wont realize any appreciable difference in IBU utilization between say 60 and 80 minutes but there is no reason not to use that extra little bit of credit.

For example:
1oz of 12AA hops at 60 minutes is about 21.7 IBUs
1oz of 12AA hops at 80 minutes (no chill 60 min. addition) is about 22.9 IBUs

So, you effectively gained 1.2 IBUs, meaning that you could use .05oz less hops.
Makes sense, I noticed that late hop additions are moved to fWH. Do you really get any appreciable aromatics from a FWH? Do you use the 1/3 tech nique when FWH or do you put the entire bittering portion in FWH?
__________________

"Real men drink their freakin' yeast starters...."

McCuckerson is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 01:05 PM   #533
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,756
Liked 73 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by McCuckerson View Post
Makes sense, I noticed that late hop additions are moved to fWH. Do you really get any appreciable aromatics from a FWH? Do you use the 1/3 tech nique when FWH or do you put the entire bittering portion in FWH?
It is a little more complicated to explain, but I have ProMash set up to handle it for me.

You get flavor and some bittering with FWH... but if you look at the chart, the late hop additions(aroma) are moved to DRY HOP, for aroma purposes.

When I move things to FWH this is what happens.

I plug the addition into ProMash.
The earlier (bittering) additions are already installed into the ProMash recipe
ProMash credits FWH for a 30 mins of IBU utilization (this I set up in the software parameters)
I then install the FWH addition and adjust the qty so that I get the same # of IBUs in my recipe, that I would have originally.

Does that make sense? Basically I DO NOT use the 1/3 rule. When I move a late addition to FWH, I let ProMash tell me how much to move based on IBUs, and ProMash is giving me 30 mins. of utilization when I FWH.
__________________
The Pol is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 01:25 PM   #534
chucke
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central Alabama
Posts: 322
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pol View Post
Like I said in my post... "If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill."

Yes, with purely bittering hops you can do that. You wont realize any appreciable difference in IBU utilization between say 60 and 80 minutes but there is no reason not to use that extra little bit of credit.

For example:
1oz of 12AA hops at 60 minutes is about 21.7 IBUs
1oz of 12AA hops at 80 minutes (no chill 60 min. addition) is about 22.9 IBUs

So, you effectively gained 1.2 IBUs, meaning that you could use .05oz less hops.
Ah- looking at it 60-80 is flawed. Perhaps the key is looking at it 40-60?? I'll need to play with the numbers. There's probably not a lot of saving on a low IBU beer, but on an IIPA, one could save .25 ounce.

But this does bring up a point- it looks like you make an argument that for additions 60 minutes and longer, the difference is marginal. IOW, one needn't bother applying the chart.
__________________
chucke is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 01:28 PM   #535
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,756
Liked 73 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucke View Post
Ah- looking at it 60-80 is flawed. Perhaps the key is looking at it 40-60?? I'll need to play with the numbers. There's probably not a lot of saving on a low IBU beer, but on an IIPA, one could save .25 ounce.

But this does bring up a point- it looks like you make an argument that for additions 60 minutes and longer, the difference is marginal. IOW, one needn't bother applying the chart.
Exactly, but it makes it dummy proof. Some of this stuff is already hard enough to explain to those who didnt create it. KISS is my philosophy.
__________________
The Pol is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 01:38 PM   #536
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,756
Liked 73 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucke View Post
Ah- looking at it 60-80 is flawed. Perhaps the key is looking at it 40-60?? I'll need to play with the numbers. There's probably not a lot of saving on a low IBU beer, but on an IIPA, one could save .25 ounce.

But this does bring up a point- it looks like you make an argument that for additions 60 minutes and longer, the difference is marginal. IOW, one needn't bother applying the chart.
The same hop addition above (1oz of 12AA) will provide a 1.9 IBU difference between 40 and 60 minutes. Keep in mind though that if you are boiling for 60 minutes and DO NOT move that addition (keep it at 60 and get credit for 80), you are only gaining 1.2 IBUs.

To clarify. If you have a recipe that calls for a 60 minute addition of 1oz of 12AA hops for 21.7 IBUs. By NOT moving the addition to 40 minutes in NC wort (according to chart) and keeping at 60 to gain the credit for 80 minutes you are gaining 1.2 IBUs.

To clarify. If you have a recipe that calls for a 40 minute addition of 1oz of 12AA hops for 19.0 IBUs. By NOT moving the addition to 20 minutes in NC wort (according to chart) and keeping at 40 to gain the credit for 60 minutes you are gaining 1.9 IBUs.

In either case you will save .1oz or less. But, if it is worth it to you... I say do it. This chart is just a guideline that I use. Also, as stated previously, these small changes make it almost useless to move move hop additions above 60 minutes in length... right, but it has proven difficult to explain this chart/process as it is... trying to keep it simple and to the point.

You are right though, on an IPA or something, you would save more ounces. But again, when I no chill, I boil for 90 minutes at a minimum, meaning that I extract no more regardless of what I do. This is my chart, depending on how you brew, you could probably make your own chart that fits your needs and works for you. This chart isnt here to be used as THE guidline, it is an example of MY guideline only, that fits how I brew. Someone who boils for 90 minutes at a min. will have a completely different view of bittering hop utilization than someone who boils for 60 min.
__________________

The Pol is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 02:06 PM   #537
The Pol
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,756
Liked 73 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Added a small disclaimer to the hop adjustment chart.

__________________
The Pol is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 03:02 PM   #538
chucke
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central Alabama
Posts: 322
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Well, alright, but it looks like you’re taking discussions of no-chill techniques as attacks on your chart. Because someone says perhaps there’s another way to go about it doesn’t mean they’re attacking your work. As any good Chinese cook can attest; there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

If I'm mistaken, so be it. And this isn't written to cause offense.

__________________

chucke is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 07:04 PM   #539
weirdboy
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,982
Liked 432 Times on 353 Posts
Likes Given: 63

Default

I decided to give the no-chill thing a shot with a small batch of saison a while back. I tried to follow all the guidelines, etc. My wort was below 180F in no time, after which I transferred to the fermenter and let it sit overnight before checking the temp, and pitching the yeast to get it going.


I opened one last night to try, and it has horrible vegetable and sulfur aromas. It is a sulfur orgy in a bottle. I'm not sure exactly what the differences are between what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing, but there's no way I'm calling that experiment a success. This is the first time I've really had any problems with those types of aromas and flavors. In my previous experience judging beers, I have been wondering how brewers even managed to get their beers to taste like that because mine have never come close to that. Now I guess I know. Although I suppose it's possible my choice of yeast (WLP566 Saison II) may have played a role, I think I'm going to continue using my chiller when brewing, because it doesn't really save enough time for me to want to try it again. I have to spend an extra 15-20 minutes chilling, and maybe a few minutes setting up and cleaning the IC. So, my brewday takes 30 minutes longer than it potentially might. I can live with that.

__________________

weirdboy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-27-2009, 07:39 PM   #540
Amity
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 252
Liked 4 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Weirdboy, what was your grainbill?

__________________
Amity is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"American" or "Imperial" Oatmeal Stout Recipe: Critiques please! cladinshadows Recipes/Ingredients 4 01-04-2012 11:21 PM
Small Scale Commerical Brewing (600gal/mo) on "Beer Budget" GuateBrewer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 11-02-2010 01:46 PM
"Video Surveillance on the Fly" or "Urine trouble now mister!" Tenchiro Debate Forum 1 05-23-2009 07:33 PM
NPR Fans: "The Science of Brewing" on Talk of the Nation tomorrow 2-3pm EDT tmoney1224 General Beer Discussion 37 05-21-2008 01:06 AM
Miller "Chill" casper0074 General Beer Discussion 5 09-30-2007 06:16 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS