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Old 05-04-2009, 01:33 PM   #41
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Hmmm.... that is interesting. I definitely agree with the clear wort after a settling effect. I am going to be using a settling tank after reading Noonan. I think that could have a big effect of beer flavor and quality.

I will have to do some more research but from everything I have read, the science points to a fast chilling to precipitate out the long chain proteins and that they do not easily come out of solution on their own. I could be wrong but would like some evidence to the contrary.

I definitely think this is a viable technique, I just don't think it fits my MO.

The book I got that out of is Noonan's New Lager Brewing. It is a great book. I can try to remember to look tonight when I get home.

EDIT: I should also note that I have an aversion to plastic. Completely unfounded, yes, but I can't help it.

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Old 05-04-2009, 01:50 PM   #42
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Yeah, but unless you are using a lot of Pilsner malt and not boiling adequately, you wont have much SMM left.

I have always boiled for 90 minutes, since it is basically free to add 30 minutes to the boil. So going to "no chill" was easier, 90-100 minute boils leave extremely small ammounts of SMM in the wort, thusly, much less ability to produce DMS.

But like anything else, you have to try it. If any of us brewed the way that the "beer gods" said to back in the 1970's, can you imagine? Much has changed since then, much will change in the next 10-20 years.
I boil between 60 and 90 depending on what I'm brewing, and on big beers for complete utilization of hops. But I do not understand how, no matter electric or gas, that the last 30 minutes of any boil is free.

On the topic in general, I believe the initial reason to adopt No Chill is that Australia is a desert with little to no rainfall and water rationing. In America, even our deserts have cheap water, so it would seem only to be a matter of preference of style, and not any sort of advantage or method of making better beer.
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:02 PM   #43
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To answer Henrys post:

I dont think anyone claimed it made better beer, but equally good beer.

Electricity for 30 minutes is pennies, to me that is essentially "free" compared to burning propane. Propane was $4 a session for me, electricity is about $1, and I dont have to waste time, or gas to drive to refill tanks.

The cost of water isnt the issue, it never has been.

For me it saves water, not money. Much water? Naaah, but some that I dont need to use. Does it save time, yeah (chilling and cleaning of the chiller). Does it make brewing in the winter easier, yeah... (no running hoses outdoors to the spigot to run the chiller). Does it have other benefits, sure. I take 1-2qts. of the real wort from the brew and create a 24-hour starter for each brew now, because I can.

Is it for everyone no... but are the people that say it doenst work, wrong? Yep... have not run into a single one that has ever tried it. I was supposed to be dead from Botulism about a week ago, or be drinking corn flavored beer... neither came to fruition.

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Old 05-04-2009, 02:13 PM   #44
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In America, even our deserts have cheap water

Monetarily, perhaps. I personally believe we are paying a different price for our "cheap" water supply in many areas: the desert southwest being one, where buying a water tank to haul water to your house is the norm in many areas now. I worked for commercial locations that were trucking in water as wells went dry. In one location, the city dug a new well deeper than the location (northern AZ) and within weeks, the location's well went dry. How long until the CITY is trucking in water.

Similiar scenarios are being played out in south Florida, with salt intrusion on the aquifers, and here in metro Atlanta with growth of population and water use overtaxing the water supply and mandating water restrictions.

So while I do not think the world is ending and all water is dissapearing, I do not think the current retail price of water in the US is reflective of the true state of availability of potable drinking water.

No-chill is certainly a way to use a little less. So is using your chill water to clean, water your hops, saving it for another batch, etc.

Just my personal opinion, of course. But I always like to conserve resources, regardless of the price.

Really, I like no chill because I am LAZY though!
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:23 PM   #45
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Really, I like no chill because I am LAZY though!
Bingo!!

FWIW... it appears that myself and another HBT member running my rig design will be brewing my OC IAPA recipe, one NO chill and one IC whirlpool chilled. We will then send a sample of each to a BJCP judge that he knows and will have them compared.

Sound good?
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:50 PM   #46
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I read this whole thread for the first time just now, and I say: good luck, D-Weed! I see no reason why it wouldn't work. What I WOULD suggest is doing a side-by-side comparison of two batches, same recipe...on one half, just put the wort in the cube and purge the headspace with CO2. On the other half, do the same thing, and also add campden tabs. I really think that, given the amount of time you're storing these things, some k-meta will do you good. Then, when they're both done and fermented...see if there's really any difference.

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Old 05-04-2009, 03:02 PM   #47
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I think this is a great technique, and I'm happy to learn about it. I could see where this helps to coordinate schedules of yeast starters and room in the primary fermenters. I would have brewed this saturday, but the beer in my primary needed a few more days, and I didn't feel like buying another big carboy.

I do have two questions:

1. What about oxygenation. Do you Aerate after you transfer from the cube to the primary?

2. This cube from Northern Brewer is 5 gallons. Do you think it would actually hold 5.5?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/cubes3.jpg

Thanks again! Good luck with your project!

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Old 05-04-2009, 03:21 PM   #48
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Hey Jason, good luck with this. You'll need to let me come over and sample one of your "Botulism Ales" when they're ready.

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Old 05-04-2009, 04:23 PM   #49
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he only has enough room in his fermentation chamber for 10-gallons at a time, and ambient temps are too warm for his liking...

Personally, I'd just buy a couple tub and fill with water and ice bottles....
Yup. Or just use the bathtub with ice water. That's what I do. I think its probably possible but I would be too worried about botulism for one and pouring boiling wort into a container that wasn't really meant for temperatures that high could cause other issues.
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:25 PM   #50
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FWIW... it appears that myself and another HBT member running my rig design will be brewing my OC IAPA recipe, one NO chill and one IC whirlpool chilled. We will then send a sample of each to a BJCP judge that he knows and will have them compared
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Sound good?
I like this idea to quell any fears about quality difference and would be intrested to see any results! I myself will probably be selfish with my results and only share with myself, SWMBO, and anyone that wants to come over and pour one off tap

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I read this whole thread for the first time just now, and I say: good luck, D-Weed! I see no reason why it wouldn't work. What I WOULD suggest is doing a side-by-side comparison of two batches, same recipe...on one half, just put the wort in the cube and purge the headspace with CO2. On the other half, do the same thing, and also add campden tabs. I really think that, given the amount of time you're storing these things, some k-meta will do you good. Then, when they're both done and fermented...see if there's really any difference.


I like the idea of running side by side. I will probably place a small order to AHB, and will pick up some campden tablets then. However with this first try I will probably forgo them for the sake of sample size; this way if one fouls and the other does not I don't have any other variables other than technique and sanitation. I probably will not purge the head space either, but instead try to completely fill the cubes, and use star-san foam from previous sanitation to help keep headspace clear.

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Originally Posted by de_ronde View Post
I think this is a great technique, and I'm happy to learn about it. I could see where this helps to coordinate schedules of yeast starters and room in the primary fermenters. I would have brewed this saturday, but the beer in my primary needed a few more days, and I didn't feel like buying another big carboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by de_ronde View Post

I do have two questions:

1. What about oxygenation. Do you Aerate after you transfer from the cube to the primary?

2. This cube from Northern Brewer is 5 gallons. Do you think it would actually hold 5.5?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/cubes3.jpg

Thanks again! Good luck with your project!
1. Hot side aeration is a concern, but by filling slowly with little to no splashing from the bottom of the container should minimize this. As far as oxygen permeability of the cube, it is the same material as the plastic bucket fermenters, and will have at least similar permeability. I imagine that oxidation through this method would really only be a concern if I was storing long term, which I do not plan to do.

2. Those look like the collapsible kind, and my main concern would be the plastic holding up to the boiling temps. Other than that, I can not say about their volume as I have never used one.

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Hey Jason, good luck with this. You'll need to let me come over and sample one of your "Botulism Ales" when they're ready.


Your on! If I am going to go, I may as well take someone out with me

EDIT: I have no idea why those extra quote tags are in there....
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