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Old 03-24-2011, 04:08 AM   #1011
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Having done a crap ton of No Chill batches in the last year or so, I'm sort of starting to question how the "transfer" addition contributes to flavor and bitterness.

The conventional wisdom here is that a transfer addition counts as a 15-20 minute addition. I planned my beers accordingly. HOWEVER, for me, I noticed that my beers were not quite as bitter, as I'd hoped, nor were they quite as hoppy either, even with "big" additions at transfer. I suspect there are a ton of factors that come into play here, including length of time for your cube to cool down, if the hops are free floating in the cube, the alpha of the hops, etc.

The end result of my personal brewing (YMMV) is that transfer additions contribute the flavor of a 15-20 addition, but oddly enough, do not contribute ANY bitterness at all. Observe my recent experiment below:

5 gallons - ESB
10lb Pale Malt
.5oz Magnum @ 60 (bittering)
3oz US Goldings @ transfer (flavor) (no hop bag/sock, left in cube for 2 days before pitching yeast)
WLP 007 Dry English Yeast
Mash at 152F
OG: 1.050 - FG: 1.015

Result: Beer tastes slightly SWEET, not very hoppy, but has a nice, mild hop aroma & flavor reminicent of "flowers" (not surprising since its Goldings I'm tasting)

IBU if transfer hops count as 1-5 minutes: 28
IBU if transfer hops count as 20 mintes: 40

No way this is a 40 IBU beer, it comes across slightly sweet & mild.

SO, your millage may vary, but for me, I count transfer additions as fairly ineffective 15 minute addition when it comes to flavor, and as a 0 or 5 minute addition in regards to bitterness.

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Old 03-24-2011, 04:18 AM   #1012
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One more set of Qs: after it ferments out, do you then carbonate the very same keg? if so, what about the yeast cake?

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Originally Posted by eulipion2 View Post
You mean like making a cask/Real Ale? That seems like a really good introduction to cask conditioning (drill the cap, put in a spigot/tap), except the Winpaks only have one opening (no good way for air to get in). Also, you'd miss out on any flavors contributed by a wooden cask, but I really like the idea. Someone should look into this...
Actually, I was thinking in terms of if one uses a sanke (or corny) keg to no-chill and ferment, whether or not you could then simply connect the co2, carb it and serve it (figuring that the first few pints would be yeast cake rich). That seems messy/potential for clogging, but would be interesting/time saving if it's doable.

But, maybe it's necessary to transfer from the no-chill/fermenter keg into another keg.

That said, if I'm onto something with the winpak acting as a cask conditioned ale, my patent is pending. LOL.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:40 PM   #1013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eulipion2 View Post
You mean like making a cask/Real Ale? That seems like a really good introduction to cask conditioning (drill the cap, put in a spigot/tap), except the Winpaks only have one opening (no good way for air to get in). Also, you'd miss out on any flavors contributed by a wooden cask, but I really like the idea. Someone should look into this...
The Rectangular Winpak
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...1848&catid=459
and the Fort Pak
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...ickid=redirect
both have a second hole, so they'll work for cask conditioning ale.

I've used a 2 1/2 gallon Fort Pak for cask ale and it works great.

You just have to drink the beer in a few days, or it will go off.

And the wooden thing- the vast majority of casks being used are stainless steel or plastic. The very few wooden casks are novelty items.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:51 PM   #1014
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SO, your millage may vary, but for me, I count transfer additions as fairly ineffective 15 minute addition when it comes to flavor, and as a 0 or 5 minute addition in regards to bitterness.
Try to do some first wort hopping and see if that doesn't improve your flavor retention. For american hops, I've been pretty impressed with the no-chill process and the flavor from first wort and flame out additions.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:55 PM   #1015
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Nutty, what are some typical hop amounts you use for FWH and flamoeout for, say, a normal Pale Ale?

I ask because my experiment above resulted in a lot less hop flavor that I would have otherwise expected from the flameout/tranfer addition.

Also, do you leave your hops floating whole in the No Chill cube, or are then in a bag of some kind. Or strained out before the transfer? Lots of variable, so I guess I'll have to brew more to go through them all! Score!

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Old 03-24-2011, 01:01 PM   #1016
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Here is a Centennial pale ale that I did last november...

Ingredients:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 90.00 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 10.00 %
0.66 oz Centennial - Hops on hand [5.10 %] (Dry HHops -
1.00 oz Centennial - Hops on hand [5.10 %] First Wort Hops 23.9 IBU
1.50 oz Centennial - Hops on hand [5.10 %] 21 min (added at 1 min to flameout) 13.2 IBU
1.00 items Campden Tablet (Mash 0.0 min) Misc
1.05 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs SafAle US-05 (House Slurry #Cake of US-05)Yeast-Ale

Calculates out to 37 IBUs. And that seems ok.

This one tastes like biting into a piece of pine wood, it is crazy full of flavor. I DONT use a cube, I just toss the flameout hops in the kettle then let the kettle cool (covered) for around 16 to 23 hours (depending on ambient temp). Then I siphon the wort off the trub and hop sludge to the fementer and pitch. I dont use hop bags.

I cite this one because it was so full of flavor I had to let it mellow before I started to really enjoy it. Try the same approach with palisades hops, or cascade if cetennial isn't your thing. People seem to enjoy my palisades version of this.

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Old 03-24-2011, 01:15 PM   #1017
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And here is my Pine Cone Pale Ale:

7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
3 lbs Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 27.27 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
1.00 oz Centennial - HOH [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 24.4 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade - Hops on Hand [3.80 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Centennial - HOH [6.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Cascade - HOH [3.80 %] (25 min) Hops 12.5 IBU
1.00 items Chemicals - Campden Tab., pH 5.2, Whirlfloc Tab. (Mash 0.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Old Newark Ale (ECY #ECY10) Yeast-Ale

This one doesn't have first wort hops. Just a one ounce bittering addition at the boil and then 2 ounces cascade for flavor and then 2 ounces dry. Pretty flavorful, especially if you have a yeast that dries it out like ECY10. Same methods as the previous post.

PS: your WLP-007 yeast should not leave your beer sweet unless you have added a lot of crystal malt or some other dextrins. Sweet beer will kill hops flavor/bitterness and your yeast is something you should look into.

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Old 04-10-2011, 04:43 AM   #1018
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The end result of my personal brewing (YMMV) is that transfer additions contribute the flavor of a 15-20 addition, but oddly enough, do not contribute ANY bitterness at all.
This method of hop addition will definitely contribute bitterness, but I don't know how to quantify it. I did a batch where the only hop addition was 4 oz of Summit 14.0% added to the bucket and allowed to cool overnight. The hops were pellets in a bag and I removed them before I pitched the yeast the next day ~20 hours later. The resultant beer was loaded with hop flavor, had a good amount of aroma, and bitter as you would expect an american pale ale / IPA to be. I don't have a good judge of bitterness based on IBU number but I would say maybe a little more bitter than Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

That being said, I added 4 oz of 14.0% hops which would be about as bitter as you can get with a 60 minute boil, but didn't come out with over the top bitterness using this method.
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:15 PM   #1019
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I just wanted to chime in and say i finally went ahead and tried no-chilling this past weekend. We'll see how it turns out. I brewed a mini-mash version of my Frozen Dawn American Mild (loosely based on Orfy's Mild). I'll report back in two weeks.

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Old 05-09-2011, 09:27 PM   #1020
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Hi, New member here! I hate dragging out hoses and taking the extra time to chill. I love brewing but am basically lazy. I'm going to do brew in a bag and no chill, with some full boil extracts thrown in. Question: Has anyone experimented with simply reducing hop amounts rather than reducing boil time? I apologize if this has already been asked, but holy jeepers, this is more than 100 page thread! I will read it all, but in addition to being lazy I'm impatient! Thanks!

Thanks!

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