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Old 05-07-2009, 05:18 AM   #91
Clayton
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this will not work, unless you freeze the cubes or add a ton of sulfites.
i hate to be a nasayer, but for twice as long as i have been brewing beer i have been growing mushrooms , makeing sterile grain cultures , isolating unique strains on agar . the cleanlyness needed is peramount and you still are fighting contamanation all the time because unlike beer where you are pitching 500,000,000 cells you may only be useing a couple and the race is on before the airborn bactera out divide you. it does not matter how long you boil the wort the only way you have a chance is to transfer the wort infront of a laminar flow hood in a clean room into an autoclaved , boiled , or irradaided container with an air tite seal and even then if you spill any wort on the threads the bactera can travel in the micron thin film from outside under the cap in.

ask any one who has ever opened a sterile Malt agar petri dish to open air even for just a few sec . with in days you will have all kinds of stuff growing in there.
and thermophilic bacteria are everywere on everything the hot wort will not kill them, sometimes 45 min at 250f and 15psi does not kill them.

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Old 05-07-2009, 05:39 AM   #92
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i think before you try 5 gal just take a quort of wort and try to "can" it
i know it will spoil.
one thing that is offton quoted around here is that no deadly things can grow in beer and that true but beer has almost no free monosaccharides and beer is not wort
all sorts of nasty **** can grow in wort ,hundreds of poisonsus molds - funguses and nasty bactera , that we never see in are fermenting beer becase the yeast , make there own Antibiotics and will clump around , nutralize and later consume many foreign types of bactera and fungus

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Old 05-07-2009, 05:58 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
this will not work, unless you freeze the cubes or add a ton of sulfites.
i hate to be a nasayer, but for twice as long as i have been brewing beer i have been growing mushrooms , makeing sterile grain cultures , isolating unique strains on agar . the cleanlyness needed is peramount and you still are fighting contamanation all the time because unlike beer where you are pitching 500,000,000 cells you may only be useing a couple and the race is on before the airborn bactera out divide you. it does not matter how long you boil the wort the only way you have a chance is to transfer the wort infront of a laminar flow hood in a clean room into an autoclaved , boiled , or irradaided container with an air tite seal and even then if you spill any wort on the threads the bactera can travel in the micron thin film from outside under the cap in.

ask any one who has ever opened a sterile Malt agar petri dish to open air even for just a few sec . with in days you will have all kinds of stuff growing in there.
and thermophilic bacteria are everywere on everything the hot wort will not kill them, sometimes 45 min at 250f and 15psi does not kill them.
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Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
i think before you try 5 gal just take a quort of wort and try to "can" it
i know it will spoil.
one thing that is offton quoted around here is that no deadly things can grow in beer and that true but beer has almost no free monosaccharides and beer is not wort
all sorts of nasty **** can grow in wort ,hundreds of poisonsus molds - funguses and nasty bactera , that we never see in are fermenting beer becase the yeast , make there own Antibiotics and will clump around , nutralize and later consume many foreign types of bactera and fungus
Having a fair amount of training in microbiology, I too shared the same concerns as you are voicing when i first read about this technique. However, as discussed previously, this method can, has, and will work; a continent of Aussie brewers attest to the fact, as well as several on this board who have tried everything but the long term storage. I have "canned" wort for starters from my boil kettle, and it worked quite well, but I had never thought of trying it with a full batch until I read about the no chill method. There are multiple links on the previous pages, as well as plenty of discussion as to how and why the process shows success when common sense states otherwise.

Remember, when you are working with culture media, not only are you working with something designed to be the perfect media to grow stuff, you are doing it at prime temperatures. Wort is full of sugars and the like which does make it a prime media when cooled, but when canned hot, the act of pasteurization kills just about everything except spore forming bacteria. It has been discussed that spores are not allowed to germinate because while sealed, when the plastic is hot there is enough oxygen permeability to prevent anaerobic growth, plus a patent posted earlier claiming the antibacterial properties of hops. The extensive boiling process coupled with the low pH of wort also lends to its ability to resist infection.

However, despite all this, if you still feel like a nay-sayer, that is quite alright. I will post my results as soon as I get the containers and give this a shot.
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:45 AM   #94
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It has been discussed that spores are not allowed to germinate because while sealed, when the plastic is hot there is enough oxygen permeability to prevent anaerobic growth
Deathweed - I would be a little careful on this one. That was one guy's theory to explain why people might not be culturing clostridium botulinum. There was no data of the permeability of HDPE at 170 degrees is XXX and the bacteria can't grow in oxygen levels above YYY, so we are safe.

Which is why I asked my question on if anyone has talked to the breweries that need to have some hard data on their side due to the liability of getting people sick. For all we know they have special processes... My initial guess is that at a minimum they are closely monitoring the ph of the wort and making chemical additions as needed to ensure that it is below 4.6 on every batch. That will reduce, but not completely eliminate, the chance of botulism.

Let's face it, even in a pretty decent environment for growth the occurrence rate of botulism is relatively low. IE, how many people every year improperly infuse oils with garlic or chili peppers and home can their vegetables without getting sick. So it could be that the chance is still out there for someone to be that one guy that disproved the theory.

Please don't consider me a naysayer, I am very interested in this method, I think it could add a lot to my brewing, allowing me to brew during the week when I am time limited or to do a 10 gal batch on Sat, and then another one on Sunday while all my equipment has been drug out of the attic. Cool and pitch the first batch Sat night and cube the Sunday batch. I just like to go on data, not anecdotal evidence when it comes to the safety of people coming to my house.
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Old 05-08-2009, 12:46 AM   #95
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Materials: I will purchase 2-4, 5 gallon HDPE water storage containers from walmart to store the "no chill" wort in.
They sell these at Wal-mart?? What section?

I'm following the "real ale in a cube" thing from the Aussie board and the cubes are darn near impossible to come by, other than ordering over the internet.
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Old 05-08-2009, 02:20 AM   #96
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In the 70s Coopers used to hot pack high gravity wort Into 15 Liter Plastic Bags that where in a sturdy box and you could ferment right in the box so this is nothing new .Coopers only started selling their famous Homebrew Concentrate kits in 1984 .

ESB Homebrew Supplies in Sydney Australia revived the Wort Kit about 1999 when Matt Donelan a Aussie brewer who had also worked at the old ESB Shop in Clovelly in the past started The St Peters brewery and ESB and the St Peters Brewery have been selling Wort Kits for the past 10 years using the "No Chill" method .

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Fresh Wort Information

The fresh wort kits are filled straight form the brewary's kettle. Unlike the can concentrates, there is no further processing on them. Hence the natural fresh hop and malt grain flavours are intact. The home brewer transfers the wort to his/her fermentor, adds 5-7 liters of cold water, sprinkles the yeast onto the brew and leaves for the fermentation period of 5-7 days(in colder conditions it may take up to two weeks for the yeast to finish fermenting all the way through). So within 5-7 minutes, the fermentaion process has begun. In terms of simplicity, there is nothing on the market to match these kits. And if the home brewer does his/her job well, observing good sanitation and tempurature control the end result is good enough to match, or even better, premium commercial products at a fraction of the cost. These kits have an enviable reputation in the market Australia wide. Because of their simplicity and high quality, they have attracted more people into making their own beer. We have been approached by several small breweries to provide them with their wort reqiurments. In fact we are even supplying the Seven Seas Brewary in Vanuatu with their wort needs. An excellent product and without a duobt the best on the market.

*Brewed and packaged by St Peters Brewery 15 May Street, St Peters NSW
Distributed by ESB Home Brew Supplies*
Fresh Wort Kits

Ive never heard of anyone drying from Botulism from brewing with Wort Kits and they have been on the Aussie market for years .The Brewhouse Kits from Canada are very Similar .
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:01 AM   #97
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They sell these at Wal-mart?? What section?

I'm following the "real ale in a cube" thing from the Aussie board and the cubes are darn near impossible to come by, other than ordering over the internet.

Yeah, that is what I figured out really fast... I thought I had seen them, but I am not in walmart that often so I was mistaken. I will be ordering some off the internet and trying this out at a later date...
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:14 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by matthendry View Post
In the 70s Coopers used to hot pack high gravity wort Into 15 Liter Plastic Bags that where in a sturdy box and you could ferment right in the box so this is nothing new .Coopers only started selling their famous Homebrew Concentrate kits in 1984 .

ESB Homebrew Supplies in Sydney Australia revived the Wort Kit about 1999 when Matt Donelan a Aussie brewer who had also worked at the old ESB Shop in Clovelly in the past started The St Peters brewery and ESB and the St Peters Brewery have been selling Wort Kits for the past 10 years using the "No Chill" method .



Fresh Wort Kits

Ive never heard of anyone drying from Botulism from brewing with Wort Kits and they have been on the Aussie market for years .The Brewhouse Kits from Canada are very Similar .
I understand that there are businesses selling them, but my question is more of are they doing anything besides pouring hot wort into a container? Things like porters and stouts could quite possibly have enough sugars and not enough hops that the ph would naturally be in the 5 range which means they might be adding other preservatives besides hops. I have no doubt that things like IPAs (which were designed to last long periods without spoiling) would probably be safe but, what are the key parameters to monitor to make all the beers safe? Maybe temp. when you pour it in is the only one, but the mere existence of kits on the market with the vast chemical arsenal available to the company making them doesn't automatically say that to me.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:22 PM   #99
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I understand that there are businesses selling them, but my question is more of are they doing anything besides pouring hot wort into a container? Things like porters and stouts could quite possibly have enough sugars and not enough hops that the ph would naturally be in the 5 range which means they might be adding other preservatives besides hops. I have no doubt that things like IPAs (which were designed to last long periods without spoiling) would probably be safe but, what are the key parameters to monitor to make all the beers safe? Maybe temp. when you pour it in is the only one, but the mere existence of kits on the market with the vast chemical arsenal available to the company making them doesn't automatically say that to me.
I didn't want to blow my own trumpet but I worked for ESB and helped develop the packaging and the concept and can tell you that nothing was added only a solution of peracetic acid and water was sprayed into the plastic cubes to help prevent any airborne bacteria having any chance to survive and they are packed above 80 degrees C straight after a 20 minute whirlpool , but the worts are a higher gravity and the IBUs are higher so you add 4 liters of water to them to dilute it down so it will be in style guide lines .Only the Stout and bock Had no water added so they would stay within Style .
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:02 AM   #100
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thanks for the info matt -- was the higher wort concentration by design for food safety or just a byproduct of the size of container chosen?

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