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Old 03-31-2014, 03:18 PM   #11
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Pardon the newbie ignorance, but I thought too fine a grind was bad for tannin extraction, or is it only a matter of proper pH?
pH and temperature determine if you extract tannins. Keep the pH where it should be and the temperature doesn't matter. You can boil the grains without tannin extraction if your pH is right. If your pH gets a little high but you control the temps you won't extract tannins either. Get the pH and temperature too high and I'd guess the fine milling would expose more husk material to extract from.
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Old 03-31-2014, 03:48 PM   #12
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I learned to mash in a bag. I use a paint strainer bag and with that as the filter, my grains can be milled until they are mostly flour. I have a Corona style mill and I set it so tight that the plates rub pretty hard when there is no grain in there to cushion them.
Sorry for the barrage of questions, but...Do you use rice hulls in the bag? If not, what prevents the bag from clogging with the fine grind? What is the mesh on the bag - do flour sized particles of husk make it through to the wort? Have you (or has anyone) done a side by side comparison of the same recipe made fine & fast in a bag vs slow and more traditional in a tun? I'd be interested in how the flavors compare.
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Old 03-31-2014, 04:32 PM   #13
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The bag will hold 5 gallons. That makes a lot of filter area so no I do not use rice hulls, there is sufficient filtering area that clogging is not a problem, plus we BIAB people don't rely on just gravity to get the wort out, we squeeze the bag. Yes, small particles will fit through the mesh of the bag but they have to be very small to do so. Wilserbrewer makes custom bags that are even finer mesh than a paint strainer bag if that worries you. As far as I know, I'm the only one experimenting with the extremely short mash period. I've tried to encourage others to try it just to get more samples but so far nobody will own up to doing so. There have been comparisons with brews done in a conventional tun with BIAB and nobody claims any different results by the time the beer is ready to drink.

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Old 03-31-2014, 04:49 PM   #14
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Resetting the grain bed isn't necessary with a batch sparge. Stir the sparge water in, stir some more, and give it another stir- a quick vorlauf and pump to the boil kettle. Really, about 5 minutes.
Perhaps I am spending too much time in vorlauf. I have to pump pretty slow, but it can take 15-20 minutes until the wort is clear. Maybe it doesn't have to be as clear as I let it get or my false bottom does not filter as well?

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As far as I know, I'm the only one experimenting with the extremely short mash period. I've tried to encourage others to try it just to get more samples but so far nobody will own up to doing so. There have been comparisons with brews done in a conventional tun with BIAB and nobody claims any different results by the time the beer is ready to drink.
I "upgraded" from BIAB a few years ago when I built my current rig. BIAB was certainly faster. Do you prefer this method mostly because of the time savings? I wouldn't expect many differences in beer quality between the two processes, would you?
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:12 PM   #15
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Perhaps I am spending too much time in vorlauf. I have to pump pretty slow, but it can take 15-20 minutes until the wort is clear. Maybe it doesn't have to be as clear as I let it get or my false bottom does not filter as well?



I "upgraded" from BIAB a few years ago when I built my current rig. BIAB was certainly faster. Do you prefer this method mostly because of the time savings? I wouldn't expect many differences in beer quality between the two processes, would you?
Perhaps you are confusing the goal of clear wort with the goal of clear beer. My wort is terribly cloudy when I start heating it toward boil but I still get clear beer. Isn't that really the goal? You vorlauf until you quit getting grain husks and particles, then drain. You don't have to have really clear wort.

I started my all grain with BIAB and haven't seen any reason to "upgrade" to a system that costs more, takes more time, and gets the same or worse results. I typically get about 85% efficiency. My back has been giving me lots of trouble so instead of doing a 5 gallon batch I do a 2 1/2 to cut the weight down. If I can make a 2 1/2 gallon batch in 2 1/2 hours, why would I want to change to your system?
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:26 PM   #16
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Perhaps you are confusing the goal of clear wort with the goal of clear beer. My wort is terribly cloudy when I start heating it toward boil but I still get clear beer. Isn't that really the goal? You vorlauf until you quit getting grain husks and particles, then drain. You don't have to have really clear wort.

I started my all grain with BIAB and haven't seen any reason to "upgrade" to a system that costs more, takes more time, and gets the same or worse results. I typically get about 85% efficiency. My back has been giving me lots of trouble so instead of doing a 5 gallon batch I do a 2 1/2 to cut the weight down. If I can make a 2 1/2 gallon batch in 2 1/2 hours, why would I want to change to your system?
What are your thoughts on doing a 6 gallon batch in 2 1/2 hours?

I have a bag of crushed grain I haven't gotten to brew with yet, and now I'm contemplating running 1/2 of it through my corona to compare the fine/fast method with my normal procedure (SS braid MT with batch sparge). I'll have to ponder the process to do this side-by-side...
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:37 PM   #17
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As far as I know, I'm the only one experimenting with the extremely short mash period. I've tried to encourage others to try it just to get more samples but so far nobody will own up to doing so.
You're not the only one using short mash times - Stone Brewing does too.

Examples from their book:
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In a 10-gallon insulated cooler, combine the crushed malts with 3 gallons plus 12 cups of 172°F water. The water should cool slightly when mixed with the grain. Hold the mash at 156°F for 20 minutes.
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In a 10-gallon insulated cooler, combine the crushed malts with 3 gallons plus 13 cups of 173°F water. The water should cool slightly when mixed with the grain. Hold the mash at 157°F for 10 minutes.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:01 PM   #18
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Perhaps you are confusing the goal of clear wort with the goal of clear beer. My wort is terribly cloudy when I start heating it toward boil but I still get clear beer. Isn't that really the goal? You vorlauf until you quit getting grain husks and particles, then drain. You don't have to have really clear wort.

I started my all grain with BIAB and haven't seen any reason to "upgrade" to a system that costs more, takes more time, and gets the same or worse results. I typically get about 85% efficiency. My back has been giving me lots of trouble so instead of doing a 5 gallon batch I do a 2 1/2 to cut the weight down. If I can make a 2 1/2 gallon batch in 2 1/2 hours, why would I want to change to your system?
I'm not confusing the two, I understand that clear beer is the goal. When I vorlauf, the runnings go from heavy grain debris, to cloudy, to clear over about 20 minutes (x2 with 2 runnings). I usually let it run until it is clear (seemed like a good idea). What I am gathering is that this is unnecessary and I can transfer or stop the vorlauf when it is free of grain debris. That will save some time.

If I do transfer to the boil when the wort is still cloudy, should I expect more break material? My current practice of using long reciruclation and transferring clear wort seems to result in very low amounts of break accumulation. I use techniques to avoid the trub/break, so more won't be an issue.

I make 10 gallons in 5-6 hours, setup to cleanup. And, I think there are probably ways I could speed that up, not counting milling and weighing stuff out. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do it my way, just asking for input.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:45 PM   #19
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What are your thoughts on doing a 6 gallon batch in 2 1/2 hours?

I have a bag of crushed grain I haven't gotten to brew with yet, and now I'm contemplating running 1/2 of it through my corona to compare the fine/fast method with my normal procedure (SS braid MT with batch sparge). I'll have to ponder the process to do this side-by-side...
I can't do it. I do my brewing on the kitchen range and it takes a little longer to heat 6 gallons than it does to heat 3. It would also take more time to stir in the grains. I'd be looking at about 2 3/4 hours instead of 2 1/2.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:48 PM   #20
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You're not the only one using short mash times - Stone Brewing does too.

Examples from their book:
Thanks for finding that. Most people seem to think I'm crazy for doing such a short mash. (some think I'm crazy for other reasons too, but that's a different thread).
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