Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > efficiency
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-16-2009, 09:32 PM   #21
macabra11
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwaterbrewer View Post
hot sparge water, 15 min rest, s l o w drain.
Everyone keeps saying "hot sparge water" and I am assuming that means 170º. But my question is, do you heat your HLT/sparge water up to 170º THEN sparge? Once that 170º hits the grain bed, the temp is going to be well below 170º. So should you heat your sparge water up to 185º, so when it hits the grain bed the temp will rest at 170º??? Is that what you guys are doing?

How long should it take you to drain your mashtun when sparging? Mine takes about 30-40 min and I have been getting terrible efficiency. Ball valve is about 1/4 open.
__________________

- macabra11
B - double E - double R - U - N

macabra11 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2009, 03:57 AM   #22
z987k
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
z987k's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Anchorage
Posts: 3,545
Liked 22 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

First of the changes, I only adjusted mash pH. I was at 6.4 at mash in, adjusted to what ended up at 5.1 (overshot a bit) and gained 8 points from 71% eff to 79%. Next I will keep the sparge water in the mlt for 15mins instead of the roughly 2. After that, as fine a crush as I can possibly do. I'll just keep adjusting things until I hit 85ish I think.

z987k is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2009, 04:17 AM   #23
passedpawn
Waste Allocation Load Lifter - Earth Class
HBT_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
passedpawn's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: ☼ Clearwater, FL ☼
Posts: 18,815
Liked 3283 Times on 2046 Posts
Likes Given: 2802

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macabra11 View Post
Everyone keeps saying "hot sparge water" and I am assuming that means 170º. But my question is, do you heat your HLT/sparge water up to 170º THEN sparge? Once that 170º hits the grain bed, the temp is going to be well below 170º. So should you heat your sparge water up to 185º, so when it hits the grain bed the temp will rest at 170º??? Is that what you guys are doing?

How long should it take you to drain your mashtun when sparging? Mine takes about 30-40 min and I have been getting terrible efficiency. Ball valve is about 1/4 open.
Most common method of sparging is to start with a mashout addition, which is usually over 200F. It is meant to bring the entire mash up to 168 in order to denature the enzymes. So, after the mashout, your mash is somewhere around 168, and that is the best temperature for your sparge water.

I don't usually mashout. I mash for 60-90min, then sparge away with 170 water. I am guessing that all enzyme action is done by then, so no point in denaturing. I overshoot my OG all the time, though, so maybe I'm wrong.
__________________
passedpawn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2009, 04:14 AM   #24
z987k
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
z987k's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Anchorage
Posts: 3,545
Liked 22 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

So tonight I adjusted pH, crushed real fine, let the sparge water sit 15mins.... and wow 89% eff. Now to go back and figure out what one did it.... although I don't know how much I care if I can repeat the 89% with the same procedure.
6lbs MO
.5lb crystal
1.040OG.

z987k is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2009, 12:11 PM   #25
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

I don't understand how your first runnings had a decreasing gravity as they ran off. The whole mash should be homogeneous.

In any case, at least you're getting it dialed in. That spreadsheet of Kaiser's is a big help to determine if it's mash eff or lauter eff. It seems to me that as long as you're getting close to 98%-99% mash eff then there's no need to crush any finer and doing so might even be detrimental to wort quality (more shredded husks).

Also, to measure the 'first runnings' gravity (to determine mash efficiency) I just pull a sample straight out of the mash right before I lauter/sparge (and after a quick stir). I know exactly how much water and grain is in the mash and there's no dilution factor due to the hot water I have to pre-fill my lauter tun with (I fly-sparge in a Zapap).

__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2009, 12:28 PM   #26
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

Quote:
Most common method of sparging is to start with a mashout addition, which is usually over 200F. It is meant to bring the entire mash up to 168 in order to denature the enzymes. So, after the mashout, your mash is somewhere around 168, and that is the best temperature for your sparge water.

I don't usually mashout. I mash for 60-90min, then sparge away with 170 water. I am guessing that all enzyme action is done by then, so no point in denaturing. I overshoot my OG all the time, though, so maybe I'm wrong.
Actually you don't fully denature all the enzymes even @ 168 F. The alpha-amylase is still working.

I think Kaiser has done experiments with cold-water sparges and his eff didn't take the hit you would expect. Here's a comment he made in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser
Just to clarify my claim: It (the sparge water temp) should not affect your efficiency if all the conversion is done in the mash. But especially when mashing thick you may not convert all the starches in the mash and subsequent conversion happens during lautering. This is when you see the sparge temp affecting efficiency. The hotter the faster and more complete that conversion will be.
Anymore I don't really sweat getting the mash/sparge all the way up to 168-170. As long as it's over 160 or so it doesn't seem to make any difference (and I haven't tried <160 F). And getting it over 160 F is merely to set the fermentablity of the wort (i.e. denaturing the beta-amylase) not really anything to do with efficiency.
__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate

Last edited by SpanishCastleAle; 07-23-2009 at 12:39 PM.
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2009, 10:59 PM   #27
z987k
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
z987k's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Anchorage
Posts: 3,545
Liked 22 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
Actually you don't fully denature all the enzymes even @ 168 F. The alpha-amylase is still working.

I think Kaiser has done experiments with cold-water sparges and his eff didn't take the hit you would expect. Here's a comment he made in this thread:

Anymore I don't really sweat getting the mash/sparge all the way up to 168-170. As long as it's over 160 or so it doesn't seem to make any difference (and I haven't tried <160 F). And getting it over 160 F is merely to set the fermentablity of the wort (i.e. denaturing the beta-amylase) not really anything to do with efficiency.
Hmmm that's interesting, I would think the solubility of sugar with increased temperature would be a factor.



I also don't really know why I got decreasing gravity from rthe first runnings. Really makes no sense, but that is what the refract said. I'll repeat it again here with the next brew and see what happens.
__________________
Beer Style Guidelines - Kaiser's Brewing Experiments - American Society of Brewing Chemists - Journal of the Institute of Brewing

Last edited by z987k; 07-23-2009 at 11:01 PM.
z987k is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5th AG, 55% Efficiency magnj All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 05-03-2009 06:09 PM
New Low in efficiency jma99 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 09-01-2008 03:56 PM
Efficiency jmmarvel All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 13 07-23-2008 04:28 PM
Need help with first AG efficiency Soulive All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 50 12-10-2007 03:22 PM
Is this efficiency right? Gabe All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 02-19-2007 04:11 AM