Redweasel
Well-Known Member
I do, but a brewer at the local pub told me it would negatively affect my efficiency. Thoughts?
Do you drain your mash tun before sparging? (Batch Sparge)
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Judd
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What do you mean by drain? If you mean draining all the wort before adding the sparge water, I've always done it that way, and have never heard anyone suggest the other way.
I would be interested to hear alternate methods of sparging.
I would be interested to hear alternate methods of sparging.
Ice9
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That's the way I've been doing it and have hit 76-82% efficiency everytime.
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Redweasel
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That is exactly what I mean. He was telling me to just add my first round of sparge water on top of my mash water then drain then add my second sparge. I think he could possibly just be a jack ass.
Sounds like he's talking about doing a mash out by adding the first addition of sparge water to the mash. You can do that- I know some people swear that a mashout helps efficiency. It's not been true for me- I get the same (not very good) efficiency whether I do two batch sparges, or one and a mash out. When I get my own mill, my efficiency will increase. I think it was Bobby_M who did side by side experiments with a single batch sparge, a mash out, a double batch sparge, etc. That was some interesting reading, if someone can help with a link.
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Redweasel
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Maybe that is it. I do remember telling him that I don't mash out though.
Got Trub?
Well-Known Member
Maximum efficiency in terms of sugar extraction is in having two equal volumes drained from your tun. This entails adding a small amount of water at the end of your mash, stir, vorlauf and drain and then add a second larger volume that equals the amount just drained off, stir, vorlauf and drain. Many of us use the first addition as an opportunity to "mash out" by adding boiling or almost boiling water to the mash to bring it up to 165-170F.
GT
GT
There's really nothing wrong being said but maybe I can clarify...
If you only want to bother taking TWO discrete runnings out of the tun, it's best to add enough sparge volume to the mash prior to first runnings so that that first running volume is near the same volume as the second runnings. For example, if you expect the mash runnings to equal about 2 gallons and you want a 7gallon preboil (your sparge would be 5 gallons) you can go ahead and add 1.5 gallons pre runnings, then run out that 3.5 gallons and then do a single and final 3.5 batch infusion. This is the highest efficiency you can get with TWO runnings.
Now, there's also a way of raising efficiency by increasing the number of discrete runnings and infusions. That's my NMODBS thing.. Go ahead and run out your 2 gallon first wort without infusing anything. THEN add half the sparge (3.5 gal in my example) and run that out (2nd runnings), then add the second 3.5gal and run that out (3rd runnings). This method is a little more work and gives you a higher efficiency than the first method I described. I guess that acronym would be MOSBS. I guess you'll have to decide if it's worth it. I think it is.
If you only want to bother taking TWO discrete runnings out of the tun, it's best to add enough sparge volume to the mash prior to first runnings so that that first running volume is near the same volume as the second runnings. For example, if you expect the mash runnings to equal about 2 gallons and you want a 7gallon preboil (your sparge would be 5 gallons) you can go ahead and add 1.5 gallons pre runnings, then run out that 3.5 gallons and then do a single and final 3.5 batch infusion. This is the highest efficiency you can get with TWO runnings.
Now, there's also a way of raising efficiency by increasing the number of discrete runnings and infusions. That's my NMODBS thing.. Go ahead and run out your 2 gallon first wort without infusing anything. THEN add half the sparge (3.5 gal in my example) and run that out (2nd runnings), then add the second 3.5gal and run that out (3rd runnings). This method is a little more work and gives you a higher efficiency than the first method I described. I guess that acronym would be MOSBS. I guess you'll have to decide if it's worth it. I think it is.
If you continually add sparge water in top-off fashion as your draining, you're essentially fly sparging.
That's what I do now. I picked up 6 points just ladling in 170 degree sparge water (very gently) only was fast was the wort as draining (which I did slowly). Never let the water level fall below 2-3 inches above the grain bed. Never stirred. The clean water pushing down through the grain bed acted like a squeegee. I always got the sense that draining, adding water, stirring, draining and repeating was re-suspending sugars throughout the grain bed that never came out completely.
Maybe that's what he was talking about.
beergears
Well-Known Member
Beerthoven
Well-Known Member
+1. This is the way I sparge and I get 90+% efficiency every time.
As Bobby_M mentioned, you may be able to squeeze out a few more percentage points of efficiency by draining completely first, then doing two equal sized sparges (three runnings total). The sparge water needs to be hot enough to raise the temp of the grain bed to 168º or so.
Try both ways and see what works best for you.
If it's really 1.5 gallons, the temp can likely be near boiling but I guess really poorly sometimes. Beersmith or BTP will tell you how hot you can go before the resultant temp breaks that dreaded 170F barrier.
Since I skip this step and drain completely first, my first and second sparge infusions are at a lower 180F which by the second infusion gets my grainbed up to about 168F.
Any plans to put your HLT up on some milk crates to stop you from having to ladel?
You're right about what happens with batch sparging... When you stir, whatever gravity that spage infusion becomes is also the gravity of the wort that is locked up in the grain due to absorbtion but that's why multiple infusions/runnings progressively does a better job of rinsing.
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Redweasel
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Dude says things but never explains why. It is very frustrating. I'm pretty sure he was talking about doing a mash out. I had explained my process to him as I was fishing for pointers on increasing efficiency.
What I do is drain my tun into the boil pot and then do two sparges of equal amounts. I think the problem I have had (explained in another post) is I was not sparging hot enough.
What I do is drain my tun into the boil pot and then do two sparges of equal amounts. I think the problem I have had (explained in another post) is I was not sparging hot enough.
That is my exercise...
My plan is to create a simple copper drip ring and get my hands on a used march pump.
I'm sure my method of fly sparging is the least efficient, since I'm doing in 30-40 minutes what a sparge arm can take up to an hour to do.
On the other hand, fly sparging also lengthens the effective mash time and I've been fighting over attenuation with longer mash times. I'm not sure I want to have 60 minute fly sparge sessions.
i've tried a bunch of different ways.
originally i batch sparged, so i'd just drain, then add my sparge water. i always came up short (cuz i didn't add enough water) and i'd top off at the end of the boil. i've since corrected this, but now i intend to re-use this method to make an additional "small" beer from time to time with a second and final sparge.
i've done half-ass fly sparging, recirculating the wort on top of bed, then doing the same with the sparge (using something to deflect so it doesn't mix up the bed), keeping the water level above the grain until i'm ready to do the final runnings.
originally i batch sparged, so i'd just drain, then add my sparge water. i always came up short (cuz i didn't add enough water) and i'd top off at the end of the boil. i've since corrected this, but now i intend to re-use this method to make an additional "small" beer from time to time with a second and final sparge.
i've done half-ass fly sparging, recirculating the wort on top of bed, then doing the same with the sparge (using something to deflect so it doesn't mix up the bed), keeping the water level above the grain until i'm ready to do the final runnings.
summersolstice
Well-Known Member
I was thinking about the possibility of using a plastic water bucket with the shower head for watering patio plants (which also seems like half-assed fly sparging). Would that work better than simply pouring over the grain bed?
WBC
Well-Known Member
I have tried all the methods in this thread too and like the ease of just keeping the water above the grain and draining at 1 qt per minute flow rate. I want to make a float valve assy for the lid of the mash tun so mashing will be an unattended event. As Biermuncher says "The clean water pushing down through the grain bed acted like a squeegee" works very well and is less labor intensive. I use a march pump which easily self primes with the pump near the floor. I will be working with larger grain quantities and if "Modified fly sparging" works well then it is a perfect solution. Can you imagine doing a batch sparge with an 1100 gallon mash tun? No, not me, I only have 10 gallons times 2 for my bigger volumes. That's why I am looking for less labor intensive methods.
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I try to get the mash-out and water loss through grain absorption the same. I'm really more concerned about water loss though...
When I re-circ I use the basket that came w/ the cooler. The center has a flat spot that pushes the re-circ out like a sprinkler. It works good for me
When I re-circ I use the basket that came w/ the cooler. The center has a flat spot that pushes the re-circ out like a sprinkler. It works good for me
Some people even just drill holes in the bottom of the bucket and brace it suspended over the mash tun. Fill the bucket with 180 degree water and the "trickle" takes care of itself. Obviously the number of holes would need to be adjusted through trial and error.
WBC, the difficulty of batch sparging an 1100 gallon mash is a bit of a red herring in the context of homebrewing isn't it? I do agree that as the batch size increases, the utility of batch sparging goes down but 1100 and 10 are not even close.
WBC
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I just threw in the 1100 gallons as a pause for thought and maybe a chuckle or two.
I have not batch sparged for the last 3 batches and am doing the same modified fly sparge as BierMuncher. I like the simplicity of it and can do it with larger batches and it still has good efficiency.
I simply cannot afford to increase my efficiency because I'm technically in the area of potentially oversparging already. I flinch a bit everytime I see a 90+ because I'm not monitoring my PH.
WBC
Well-Known Member
I think tannons in the brew because or too much heat in the sparging are a bit over rated. I have never had a problem with that and I know you push the limits (temperature) so if you do not see it either then not to worry.
