Did a hopstand make my IPA too bitter?

Let me start by saying that I like a bitter beer. I am a big fan of hoppy IPAs and IIPAs. I have been learning a lot this year about late addition hops and whirlpooling/hopstanding to get that big hop flavor and aroma in my pales and IPAs. I have taken to doing hopstands by chilling to 180 right after flameout and then adding my flameout additions and letting them sit for about 30 mins. I've had great success with this technique on previous brews and that's why I'm a little stumped. I figured some outside input would help me dial in my process and investigate my techniques for flaws.
I know that I will get some IBUs from hops steeping at 180. I also just realized that I can adjust this parameter in the new version of Beersmith. I plan on starting to dial this in with my next recipes. But I've used this technique before with good results and I don't see why this one came out so damn bitter. I was going for a 6% IPA with a big dank, piney flavor and aroma. Instead what I got was this acridly bitter peach bomb. The aroma is overwhelmingly peachy and not the piney, resinous dank I was hoping for. I'll post my recipe in hopes that someone has some advice. The OG was 1.056 and finished at 1.011. In the primary fermenter for a week. Started at 64 and ramped up to 70 over the course of a week. Calculated IBUs were 78.5. Mashed at 148 for an hour. Hit all my numbers and the brew went well. Did my hopstand at 175 for 30 mins like normal and into the carboys and away we go. It was a 10 gallon batch split between two carboys. One is still in primary with no dry hop yet. The other I dryhopped twice, once after primary fermentation finished, and when I kegged it I dropped in the second addition. Each dry hop addition was 1oz Simcoe, 1/2 oz Amarillo, 1/2oz Nugget, 1/2oz Columbus. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I guess I'm just trying to see if anything stands out as a reason this would turn out way too bitter. At 78 IBUs(Tinseth) this beer seems like it would be great. I know 6oz flameout is quite a bit but it doesn't seem like it was overkill. Anyway, sorry for the lengthy post and thanks again...

13 lbs 13.1 oz
Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
Grain
1
58.6 %
6 lbs 7.2 oz
Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
Grain
2
27.3 %
1 lbs 6.1 oz
Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
Grain
3
5.9 %
1 lbs 0.5 oz
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)
Grain
4
4.4 %
14.7 oz
White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM)
Grain
5
3.9 %
2.00 oz
Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min
Hop
6
53.1 IBUs
1.00 oz
Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min
Hop
7
12.7 IBUs
1.00 oz
Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min
Hop
8
12.7 IBUs
2.00 oz
Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min
Hop
9
0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz
Nugget [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min
Hop
10
0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz
Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min
Hop
11
0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz
Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
Hop
12
0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz
Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
Hop
13
0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz
Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
Hop
14
0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz
Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
Hop
15
0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz
Nugget [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

sorry about the formatting. can't figure out how to export it correctly from Beersmith

Your 60 min and 20 min addition would be the likely culprit for too much bitterness. Is that recipe for a 5 gallon batch?

Also, a lot of the time a hopstand makes your late additions more of an earlier addition due to the fact that the hops are sitting in hot liquid for longer than they normally would be, so that's always a factor.

You would think FWH would kinda smooth things out and wouldn't give it that bitterness bite your speaking of but that 2 oz could very well have done the deed.

The recipe was for a 10 gal batch. For comparison, the Pliny clone I did had 3.5 oz Columbus FWH and another .75 oz Columbus addition at 45 mins. It turned out delicious. The Pliny clone was only a 6 gal batch...

If you are dropping it to 180 to start a hop stand you should be getting very little IBU contribution from this. Isomerization drops quickly with temperature and if I remember correctly 175 is right on the edge of where it stops. As far as the peach goes, that is usually attributed to esters I believe, but here it may have come from the large hop stand addition. In an IPA I did I used Simcoe, Centennial and Cascade and had a strawberry aroma and flavor.

I've never done a FWH for 90 minutes before, have you? If so were the results more satisfactory? 90 minute boil + time to drop temp and 30 min steep is a long time for a hop IMO. You may have also had a more vigorous boil and increased the utilization that way, resulting in a higher IBU. Personally I would take note of your results. If you like the aroma and flavor, reduce the FWH amount to adjust IBU. If you don't like the aroma or flavor it's a bit harder.

One thing to remember when you start playing with BeerSmith and hop stands, they have a set parameter for the temperature of the stand. I believe it was 190, but don't remember off hand.

IMHO it seems that the beer is just very bitter without much of a malt backbone to accompany it. I never made a brew with that many hops/ibus and such a low og but hey if it has worked for you in the past, keep on trucking and take the bads with a grain of salt.

I did something like this, I think it was caused by the low ABV of 5%, when my normal IPA is 8%. I dono?

PH level problem?

I find nugget very harsh, more so than columbus (which is also pretty harsh). Could it be that the IBUs are just much harsher with the nugget added?

You've got a boatload of bittering with the 90 minute FHW already, and adding the nugget to it may take it over the top.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think Yooper's suggestion is good about the Nugget. I am starting to think it's something with the combination of hops I used. I think that the sensation of bitterness is increased with the combination of high alpha, really pungent hops like Nugget and Columbus added in a large flameout addition. I'm still a little confused about the puckering astringency in a brew calculated at 78.5 IBUs though. I thought that beyond a certain level, like around 100 IBUs or so, the perception of bitterness is pretty maxed out. I know I've tried beers way beyond in IBUs than what I made with this recipe and found them excellent. Maybe that just speaks to the balance of hop choices and that I hit on a bad(to me) combination. All hops were fresh and not oxidized so I can rule that out. I wonder if dry hopping at 69 degrees would cause this? I put my first dry hop addition in the primary and just left my ferm chamber at the temp fermentation finished out. The hops were in there for about 4 days before I kegged. I've read that this could cause a grassy or vegetative character but I wouldn't call what I'm tasting grassy necessarily.
I haven't yet delved into monitoring my pH or water chemistry yet. Maybe that could be a factor but I've made about 15 different beers this year ranging in style from RIS to IIPA and all have come out great. I'm thinking I could fix this one by brewing another 5 gal batch bittered to 10 or 20 IBUs and then blend half of that batch with each of the 5 gal batches from the original recipe. But I don't want to have to do that again in the future and was just looking to see what other's thoughts were.
I've got 4 oz of hops in this recipe pre-flameout for an 11 gal batch size. That doesn't seem extreme with today's West Coast IPAs. I would think that even if I had a hop combination I didn't particularly like, that I still wouldn't find it too bitter. Maybe I just wouldn't like the flavor. This one came out decidedly astringent and bitter so that's why I was asking about the hopstand in the original question. brewmeister made some good points so I'm starting to rule out the hopstand being the cause. But it doesn't mean that the combination I used in a big flameout addition wouldn't have caused the harsh flavor I am experiencing. Thanks for the feedback and I'm excited to brew again and get this figured out. After all, the whole point for me is to drink beer I really like and I know it can be done. Cheers!

I haven't looked up the cohumulone content of nugget hops (as I simply don't use them because I don't like them) but between the high cohumulone of the columbus and the nugget, it could be a big factor in the harshness.

Water chemistry could play a role but if your other IIPAs have been ok, I think it's the hops combo.

I'm blaming the low OG & low mash temp. You also don't list the yeast, peachy=S05? Your BU:GU Is also almost 1.5:1 pretty high for a pale. Nugget can definitely come across as somewhat harsh, I've found that tends to calm down after a couple of weeks.

logdrum said:

I'm blaming the low OG & low mash temp. You also don't list the yeast, peachy=S05? Your BU:GU Is also almost 1.5:1 pretty high for a pale. Nugget can definitely come across as somewhat harsh, I've found that tends to calm down after a couple of weeks.

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Good points here. I fell into the trap of trying to make the oxymoronic "session" IPA. Big hop flavor and aroma with a low OG. I guess you might call it a super hoppy pale as well. I'm realizing that there is only so far you can go with this. Balancing the malt backbone with the hop bill is tricky enough. But pushing the limits is proving to be a learning experience.
The yeast was indeed S05. I do most of my beers with this yeast and haven't gotten the peachy notes I have heard that others get. I usually start fermentation around 63 or 64 and ramp up to 70 over the course of a week or so. Maybe this is the source of the peachyness on this brew. I'll have to search for threads on that.

Yooper said:

Water chemistry could play a role but if your other IIPAs have been ok, I think it's the hops combo.

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I think it might be time for a Ward Labs report! I noticed the same what I called "grainy" taste in this brew as in the last session beer I made. I'm guessing that it's showing up more in lighter, lower gravity beers. Thanks for the feedback Yooper.

worthogg said:

I fell into the trap of trying to make the oxymoronic "session" IPA. Big hop flavor and aroma with a low OG. I guess you might call it a super hoppy pale as well. I'm realizing that there is only so far you can go with this. Balancing the malt backbone with the hop bill is tricky enough. But pushing the limits is proving to be a learning experience.

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If you're trying to make a "session" IPA you may try mashing higher. 148 is going to give you a much more fermentable beer, it's what I used for a boarder line IIPA/IPA recipe to good results, and possibly cause it to be thin and weak flavored. I'm actually going to brew one Wednesday and will be mashing at 158 to keep my final gravity at 1.013 or so. I'll have to let you know if it is to good results or not.

Adding a touch of Honey Malt or Melanoidin Malt is also supposed to give it a stronger malt perception than it actually is.

brewmeister13 said:

Adding a touch of Honey Malt or Melanoidin Malt is also supposed to give it a stronger malt perception than it actually is.

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I've been wanting to try honey malt. This may be a good excuse to add a few ounces and see what happens.

brewmeister13 said:

Adding a touch of Honey Malt or Melanoidin Malt is also supposed to give it a stronger malt perception than it actually is.

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Honey malt is awesome. I use anything from 1/2 to a full lb in my Pale ales and IPAs regularly. Can't get enough of it.

FWIW, I got Tasty McDole to try a Session IPA I made for NHC. He was kind enough to not spit it out, but I mashed at 158 and it was still harshly bitter at 68IBUs. He suggested that in this style the body is key (which I did ok on) and that it's wise to stay in the upper 40s for IBUs. There's only so much malt to play against the bittering.

Piratwolf said:

FWIW, I got Tasty McDole to try a Session IPA I made for NHC. He was kind enough to not spit it out, but I mashed at 158 and it was still harshly bitter at 68IBUs. He suggested that in this style the body is key (which I did ok on) and that it's wise to stay in the upper 40s for IBUs. There's only so much malt to play against the bittering.

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Nice, what was the OG on your SIPA? I am still not so sure how comfortable I am calling a 6% beer a "session" beer. I mean, if I call it that do I fool myself into thinking I can do things like have a couple pints at lunch and still be productive for the rest of the day? But I think it could be more of a challenge to make a 4% IPA that tastes excellent and balanced than to make a good 6% IPA.

I guess one of the tricks is to get that body without having the beer end up cloyingly sweet. I like my beers nice and dry so I usually mash low. I'll have to experiment with the higher mash temps on a low OG beer like a session IPA. I was also thinking switching up my yeast would help as I mainly use S05. Something that doesn't attenuate quite as much but that still has a nice clean crisp flavor profile is what I'd be looking for. The honey/melanoidin is also a good idea I think but I haven't experimented with these grains yet.
I entered my hop additions into Beersmith with the new updated version's steep/whirlpool field. I set it for 30% utilization for a 30 min hopstand and it calculated out to about 100 IBUs. A far cry from the upper 40s and more than any 1.056 beer should be able to carry I know. But I have to say, now that it's a little more carbed up it's not as bad as I first thought. Still way too bitter, but the flavor changed and seems like it kind of "merged" into something more cohesive. Self induced Lupulin Threshold Shift!