Kegconnection Complete Starter Kit and More Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > The definitive aeration/oxygenation experiment

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-01-2007, 12:58 PM   #51
Orfy
For the love of beer!
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Orfy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Cheshire, England
Posts: 11,853
Liked 68 Times on 52 Posts
Likes Given: 30

Default

Bobby, It's great that you are doing this.

People who done aerate will be biased to no aeration and those with shiny 02 systems will be biased towards using them (usually)

Orfy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-01-2007, 01:03 PM   #52
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,831
Liked 905 Times on 602 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoXJ13
no, because I really doubt one could taste a difference in .003 SG points, or at least I couldn't
As was mentioned, it's almost a 10% alcohol content difference. In previous threads, we threw around the concept that O2 saturation simply gets your yeast to attenuate in the range you would expect based on the strain in ideal conditions. I suggested that while you may want a sweeter/maltier beer, you can still do so by either using a lower attenuating yeast like Danstar Windsor or simply add more unfermentables to your brew (pils malts) or powdered Lactose, etc. Sure, we're splitting hairs at this point but the I would rather control the process rather than pitch and see.

In other words, why try controlling dry/sweet by varying yeast health or cell count?
__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-01-2007, 01:06 PM   #53
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,831
Liked 905 Times on 602 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by orfy
Bobby, It's great that you are doing this.

People who done aerate will be biased to no aeration and those with shiny 02 systems will be biased towards using them (usually)
That's just the way isn't it, especially if you've spent money. I'm in a weird spot. My whole O2 setup cost me under $10 (the stone and some tubing) so I'm not vested. I was secretly hoping that #2 kicked a$$ so that I could Ebay the bottle reg to some unsuspecting shmuck who doesn't read HBT.
__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-01-2007, 01:24 PM   #54
fifelee
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
fifelee's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vaughn, MT
Posts: 1,102
Liked 33 Times on 24 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

There is some info on BrewMonkey.com (supposedly from Wyeast Laboratories) that backs up your finding. It says that O2 is better than shaking. It also surprisingly says that aquarium pumps are no better than shaking. That sucks…I was thinking about getting one. But, it seems like they could have tested the aquarium pump for a longer time. Thank again Bobby_M.

__________________
fifelee is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-01-2007, 01:41 PM   #55
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,831
Liked 905 Times on 602 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

Let's take a harder look at shaking vs. pumping filtered air.

Shaking: You're basically restricted to getting some of the O2 out of the air that's in the headspace of your fermenter. Of course, of that air volume, only 20% is O2. You can shake for 6 hours straight and the most O2 you'll dissolve is that 20% of the headspace. Of course, you can uncap, purge the air and let new fresh (or is it contaminated) air back in and do it again.

Pumping: At least you you can run it for a really long time without worrying about contamination. I think the issue with the pumping alone is that the bubble rise up out of the wort quickly. I think a combo of pumping and shaking would be better than just pumping because you're forcing the air back into the wort to give it time to absorb o2. In fact, I just started wondering why I hadn't thought to shake my fermenter a bit as I'm pumping O2. After about 20 seconds of O2, I'd assume the headspace is saturated. A quick shake would put that back into suspension at least for a couple minutes.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-01-2007, 03:01 PM   #56
magno
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
magno's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 909
Liked 5 Times on 4 Posts

Default

This is a link posted by mysterio http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/M..._Culturing.php

In the article it lists some of the benefits of O2 vs an air pump vs shaking, as well as different wort compositions and nutrients. The article is mainly about making starters, but some of the concepts hold true for fermentation.

For my last batch, I aerated the starter intermittently with an air pump and filter. Previously I had either shaken it, or used the pump only at the beginning. Aerating intermittently seemed to do something, as I got my first blowoff with this batch.

Good job on the experiment, Bobby_M.

- magno

__________________
magno is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2007, 10:11 PM   #57
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,831
Liked 905 Times on 602 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

Ok, so it's been six days since I pitched on this experiment.

If you recall, I posted that at 45 hours after pitching (remember the OG was 1.050):

#1 = 1.018 (64% attenuation)
#2 = 1.019 (62% attenuation)
#3 = 1.016 (68% attenuation)

After 70 hours, the SGs were:

#1 = 1.016 (68% attenuation)
#2 = 1.015 (70% attenuation)
#3 = 1.013 (74% attenuation)

After 144 hours or 6 days, the SGs are:

#1 = 1.012 (76% attenuation) 5.1% ABV
#2 = 1.013 (74% attenuation) 4.9% ABV
#3 = 1.011 (78% attenuation) 5.2% ABV




I'm surprised that the shaken sample didn't fall in the center as it has been. In any case, I don't think these results are as impressive as i would have thought but I'm sure it is being affected by the rather high pitch rate. I suspect that if my pitch rate was halved, there would be a more dramatic difference between the three samples. That is, the ultimate attenuation would have been dependent on the yeast's ability to reproduce to adequate cell counts. I think sample 3 would have pulled well above the rest.

Here's an idea. If you like dryer beers, stay away from Safale-04 + O2.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2007, 12:16 AM   #58
medic_35057
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
medic_35057's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Culllman, Alabama
Posts: 94
Default Pure O2

Room air is 21% O2, Medical O2 is 100%. In your video was the O2 cylinder filled with room air or was it filled with medical O2? What rate did you have your regulator set? You can set those things anywhere from 1 lpm to over 25 lpm. Just curious. I wonder if adjusting the rate of flow out of your O2 cylinder would affect your outcome?

__________________
medic_35057 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2007, 04:13 AM   #59
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 114 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medic_35057
Room air is 21% O2, Medical O2 is 100%. In your video was the O2 cylinder filled with room air or was it filled with medical O2? What rate did you have your regulator set? You can set those things anywhere from 1 lpm to over 25 lpm. Just curious. I wonder if adjusting the rate of flow out of your O2 cylinder would affect your outcome?
The welding O2 is 100% O2 as far as I know and the regulator he used cannot be set to a particular flow rate like the one on medical O2 equipment.

Kai
__________________
BrauKaiser.com - brewing science blog - Twitter - water and mash chemistry calculator
Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2007, 01:10 PM   #60
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,831
Liked 905 Times on 602 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

To clarify, I do have my bottle filled with pure O2. Why would I use compressed air anyway? This is a medical bottle with a precision flow rate regulator. I had it set at 1.5 lpm (at least I think it's rated in liters per minute). Any faster than that, the wort would foam out of the neck of the carboy before the two minutes are up.

I suppose a longer O2 injection cycle would get a little more into saturation, but given the high pitch rates, I don't think it would have increased the attenuation at all.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
02 aeration (oxygenation?) murphyslaw General Techniques 13 06-18-2009 07:35 PM
Pitching Rate and Oxygenation Experiment. Kaiser All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 06-26-2008 01:46 PM
Aeration / Oxygenation 1fastdoc Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 1 02-28-2007 02:22 AM
My own aeration oxygenation problems bandt9299 General Techniques 7 02-04-2007 09:07 PM
oxygenation vs aeration abracadabra Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 11 01-03-2007 12:09 AM