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Old 01-30-2007, 11:07 PM   #31
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Good job, and great idea whith the gloves.

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Originally Posted by Bobby_M
Safale S-04 is claimed to attenuate in the low 70's so the O2 injected batch is nearly done.
Since you don't know the composition of the wort and fermentation conditions when they measured atteniuation for the yeast, you won't really know where your batches will finish.

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Old 01-30-2007, 11:19 PM   #32
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Right on Kaiser, I realize that estimated attenuation figures are bull until they're measured.

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Old 01-31-2007, 02:56 AM   #33
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Also, 1018 and 1019 are pretty darn close. If we really wanted to be accurate, each method (1,2, and 3) would have to be done in triplicate and the average gravities taken at each timepoint. This is not to take anything away from your experiment, however, I think it was great to watch and very informative. I'm just saying, with all the variables that could be present in pitch rate, volume measurement, etc. I would have to say that at this point 1018 and 1019 probably aren't statistically significant in their difference. The other thing to consider is that 2 minutes of shaking isn't very much. Air is only about 20% oxygen and depending on how the carboy was shaken it may not have maximized the surface area to volume ratio of the wort and thus affected the solubility of gasses in the wort. Remeber the O2 had a diffusion stone. #2 did take off first though, indicating that the had indeed done something.

I'm excited to see the FG numbers, great work!

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Old 01-31-2007, 02:58 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M
Right on Kaiser, I realize that estimated attenuation figures are bull until they're measured.
I didn't want to be a smart-ass, but some brewers do take these attenuation numbers way to seriously.

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Old 01-31-2007, 03:33 AM   #35
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IMHO I would expect #2 to start "off gassing" as you put it first because of the amount of gas that was not disolved but instead suspended in the wort.

When I am cleaning my carboys (or even rinsing them out) I cover the opening with my hand and shake the hell out of them and get a pretty decent presure release. Depending on the size of your airstone (mine is 2 microns) I would expect those bubles to be disolved more and faster then just shaking.

Still interesting, nice work

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Old 01-31-2007, 04:55 AM   #36
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I really see no difference in your numbers, although I respect you for the effort put into this experiment. I have been seeing a lot of non-scientific stuff on this board, a lot of speculation, and a lot of opinions that are unfoundd. A difference of .003 is really nothing in the large sense of things (n=1, standard deviations, etc), and as clayof2day said, you need to repeat this experiment a bunch of times...

Personally, as far as my 'brewery' goes, I am going to try to spend as little money and keep it as simple as possible, and this includes pitching and shaking. But then again, boys love their toys, I drive a jeep with well over $5000 in modifications that are totally not necessary...to each their own.

That being said, I am not even close to hitting most attenuation numbers, i think the LME from my shop sucks, but I am still going to bottle it when SG's are steady and bottles will not explode.

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Old 01-31-2007, 05:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoXJ13
That being said, I am not even close to hitting most attenuation numbers, i think the LME from my shop sucks, but I am still going to bottle it when SG's are steady and bottles will not explode.
What LHBS do you shop at for your LME? Have you tried DME?
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Old 01-31-2007, 01:25 PM   #38
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First, I want to say that constructive criticisms are welcome, expecially in the methods so that the next brewer to take this on can be more accurate. However, I don't want anyone slamming my results unless they're willing to disprove them with their own test. It's easy to talk about variables and controls all day long than it is to put it into practice especially when my last experience with scientific method was 14 years ago in high school. That being said, here are some more comments.

Quote:
clay said: I'm just saying, with all the variables that could be present in pitch rate, volume measurement, etc. I would have to say that at this point 1018 and 1019 probably aren't statistically significant in their difference. The other thing to consider is that 2 minutes of shaking isn't very much. Air is only about 20% oxygen and depending on how the carboy was shaken it may not have maximized the surface area to volume ratio of the wort and thus affected the solubility of gasses in the wort. Remeber the O2 had a diffusion stone. #2 did take off first though, indicating that the had indeed done something.
Agreed. I said above that I really can't be positive that #1 & #2 are different enough to make any claims. In fact, to take any possible bias away, it would be nice for the gravity tester to not know which sample was which. I personally can't imagine I would WANT any particular result except to confirm that using my O2 system is useful. However, I didn't pay for my O2 bottle so I really have no vested interest. Still, bad science abound.

If shaking was my usual method, there's no way I'd do it for more than 2 minutes. Besides, in a typical 5 gallon batch, you'd never be able to shake with the same vigor as I did on this one gallon bottle. There was only foam, almost no liquid wort could be seen at the bottom. I believe I got all the air from the headspace pretty well in contact with the wort in that container.

To your last comment about #2 taking off first, it says nothing about the benefit of aeration though. As we discussed earlier, taking off first suggests that the reproductive cycle simply didn't happen or didn't last very long.
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Old 01-31-2007, 01:37 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumbaa
IMHO I would expect #2 to start "off gassing" as you put it first because of the amount of gas that was not disolved but instead suspended in the wort.
I used the term off gassing but I really meant fermenting. Any gas that was in the container prior to shaking was just redistributed (suspended). It's not the same as if I compressed the gas first. If this is your aeration method you really just hope that some of the O2 in that air dissolves into the wort. I'm not sure I'm saying it right but I don't think the inition pressure build up you see on #2 has anything to do with suspended air coming out of solution. I believe it is CO2 being created via fermentation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumbaa
When I am cleaning my carboys (or even rinsing them out) I cover the opening with my hand and shake the hell out of them and get a pretty decent presure release.
I'm taking a guess, but I think that has a lot more to do with the temperature of the water. Try it this way, heat up the carboy with warm water. Then put cold water in and shake it up. I bet you get a vacuum on your hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumbaa
Depending on the size of your airstone (mine is 2 microns) I would expect those bubles to be disolved more and faster then just shaking.
Yeah, who knows. It's too bad I don't have a pump/airstone. I THINK it's about the same as shaking in how much O2 you end up with. The real benefit to airpump systems is the ability to filter the air which you can't do with the shake method. No matter how small the risk, the shake method takes possibly contaminated air from the headspace and completely distributes it throughout your wort.
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Old 01-31-2007, 01:47 PM   #40
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You're also supposed to get beter results (more o2 absorption) by having the o2 bubbles barely break the surface. By having a lower pressure and smaller bubbles, they stay in contact with the liquid longer allowing more to be absorbed. Also the vigorus bubbling at the surface knocks gas out of solution lowering the total disolved gasses.

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