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Old 09-26-2013, 01:45 PM   #51
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This is a fascinating thread. We have this beer cheese dip we make, and SWMBO was too worried to bring it to a family picnic with children.

I wondered if boiling would work, but we just made another dip.
And yet wine is used in sauces and no concern is had for the children when it is given that alcohol remains. Being childless, my opinion does not matter, but kids used to drink small beers and were okay. I am sure in moderation it will not injure your kids to have that small amount of alcohol from beer-cheese (which frankly sounds delicious). Maybe warn other parents that there is beer in there?

Looking back this is not being accusational. Just something I notice.


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Old 09-26-2013, 06:06 PM   #52
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And yet wine is used in sauces and no concern is had for the children when it is given that alcohol remains. Being childless, my opinion does not matter, but kids used to drink small beers and were okay. I am sure in moderation it will not injure your kids to have that small amount of alcohol from beer-cheese (which frankly sounds delicious). Maybe warn other parents that there is beer in there?

Looking back this is not being accusational. Just something I notice.
And especially because it was 1/2 cup of beer in a lot of dip. But that 's not really the point I guess


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Old 12-08-2013, 06:02 AM   #53
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Awesome post, sparked lots of ideas...

I like where CDGoin was going with his method, a home method to maximize malt/beer flavor without getting rid of all aromatics or hop flavor or leaving too sweet.
So, here's my obviously overcomplicated thought for a modification on ideas so far:

For 5 gal-
Heated beer
Brew 2.5 gal of a very heavy but low alcohol beer 2-5 % ABV with NO hops, ferment to completion. Heat to approx 175-185ish 2-3 hours to remove as much alcohol as possible (alcohol and water are a positive azeotrope - should only become a problem when getting pure alcohol, not pure water, 3-4 hours at 180F should remove 99% of alcohol from beer depending on conditions)

Thinned Beer
Take above and add RO or distilled water to make 5Gal, cutting remaining ABV in half depending on previous boil time.

Use one of the above in place of water to brew very low gravity beer recipe (say normally 1-3% ABV ) and either stop ferment early (leaving somewhat sweet beer) or ferment to finish and heat again, this time with hop schedule as if brewing from scratch. (with adjustments for gravity/bitternes)

Force carb with Keg or maybe CO2 charger so no alcohol is added...

One or more rounds of thin beer, heated beer, use as base for more thin beer or use to cut higher ABV beer etc. rinse, repeat, add hops only at the very last boil - might give a fairly good "beer" with less than .5% ABV.
If someone had health issues and really wanted to put the time into brewing and blending, I think a "craft brew level" low alcohol beer could be done and then some!

FWIW, if it's an issue with a recovering Alcoholic, I have close friends in recovery - most people in recovery from alcohol consider even 1-2% alcohol as ALCOHOL... I just share other hobbies with them.

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Old 12-08-2013, 05:05 PM   #54
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Awesome post, sparked lots of ideas...

I like where CDGoin was going with his method, a home method to maximize malt/beer flavor without getting rid of all aromatics or hop flavor or leaving too sweet.
So, here's my obviously overcomplicated thought for a modification on ideas so far:

For 5 gal-
Heated beer
Brew 2.5 gal of a very heavy but low alcohol beer 2-5 % ABV with NO hops, ferment to completion. Heat to approx 175-185ish 2-3 hours to remove as much alcohol as possible (alcohol and water are a positive azeotrope - should only become a problem when getting pure alcohol, not pure water, 3-4 hours at 180F should remove 99% of alcohol from beer depending on conditions)

Thinned Beer
Take above and add RO or distilled water to make 5Gal, cutting remaining ABV in half depending on previous boil time.

Use one of the above in place of water to brew very low gravity beer recipe (say normally 1-3% ABV ) and either stop ferment early (leaving somewhat sweet beer) or ferment to finish and heat again, this time with hop schedule as if brewing from scratch. (with adjustments for gravity/bitternes)

Force carb with Keg or maybe CO2 charger so no alcohol is added...

One or more rounds of thin beer, heated beer, use as base for more thin beer or use to cut higher ABV beer etc. rinse, repeat, add hops only at the very last boil - might give a fairly good "beer" with less than .5% ABV.
If someone had health issues and really wanted to put the time into brewing and blending, I think a "craft brew level" low alcohol beer could be done and then some!

FWIW, if it's an issue with a recovering Alcoholic, I have close friends in recovery - most people in recovery from alcohol consider even 1-2% alcohol as ALCOHOL... I just share other hobbies with them.
So, brewday, make the wort, boil with no hop additions at all just long enough to sanitize, ferment, put into pot, full boil with hop additions, keg, carb = very low abv beer. I wonder how much alcohol would be left after an hour boil. I also wonder how different the hop flavor/bitterness/mouthfeel would come across with the alcohol removed. It definitely would be heavier. I do not even drink NA beers but may consider a 1 gal batch of this method just because. Actual AVB may be determinable by OG/FG/post bittering FG but that math may be beyond me.

Cool thought.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #55
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Tried to neuter part of my Honey Porter batch for a good friend of mine who doesn't/can't tolerate alcohol but loves beer. I sprung for the White labs test, and just got my results back- failure. It reduced from 5.6%(calculated) to 5.45%(actual test%). I think I know where I goofed. My technique was to heat the gallon on the stove to 180*, then put it in the oven set on 170* for 1/2 hour. My guess is that the 170* setting may be even a lower temp. than stated. So, I'm going to try again with my next batch, 1st by checking the oven temp, then by raising the oven temp to 180*.
Interesting enough, when I checked the SG of the treated sample, it had only risen 2 points(1.016 vs. 1.014) which does fit with what the lab told me. So, I think I'm not going to shell out another $30, but will rely on the SG to tell me if I was successful.
I have now used this method with parts of 4 other batches to create a Christmas giftpack for my friend. The difference is that I check the temp of the beer in the oven and adjust the oven temp accordingly to keep it in the 170* range. Setting for my oven usually has to be 195-200 to keep the beer at proper temp. SG rises appropriately when completed.
I've neutered a Scotch ale, an Altbier, a Graf, and a Vienna lager. Better palates might be able to tell a difference in flavor between neutered and untouched, but I can't. I consider this a success. I would love to recheck with the Whitelabs kit, but I'm not shelling out another $35.
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:37 PM   #56
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I wonder how much alcohol would be left after an hour boil. I also wonder how different the hop flavor/bitterness/mouthfeel would come across with the alcohol removed. It definitely would be heavier. I do not even drink NA beers but may consider a 1 gal batch of this method just because. Actual AVB may be determinable by OG/FG/post bittering FG but that math may be beyond me.

Cool thought.
Yeah, I've only had NA beers a hand full of times, but I like problem solving challenges!

Seems like the hops would be roughly the equivalent of the pre-fermented beer, though I haven't looked into hop chem as much as the rest of the brewing process, good point.


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I have now used this method with parts of 4 other batches to create a Christmas giftpack for my friend. The difference is that I check the temp of the beer in the oven and adjust the oven temp accordingly to keep it in the 170* range. Setting for my oven usually has to be 195-200 to keep the beer at proper temp. SG rises appropriately when completed.
I've neutered a Scotch ale, an Altbier, a Graf, and a Vienna lager. Better palates might be able to tell a difference in flavor between neutered and untouched, but I can't. I consider this a success. I would love to recheck with the Whitelabs kit, but I'm not shelling out another $35.
I don't trust oven temps either, I use a $15 remote thermometer probe with temp alarm for normal brewing and baking - would use it for that purpose too...(good to 400+ deg F in oven)

May estimate ABV with calcs/hydro readings <del>(or try capturing the vapor and measuring volume on a test sample?)</del> (Measure volume of sample before and after ethanol boil off and compare side by side to unfermented wort boil off volume?)
If the mix were just water and ethanol, you could salt out the alcohol and measure it that way...

How did the SG readings come out OG/FG/after cooking?

I'm impressed with the taste consistency, especially after heating so long! Anything specific concerning hop flavor/aroma?

FWIW, I found several notes on alcohol evap from cooking food...beware the comments by people who say it can't cook off due to azeotropes, I'm not 100%, but I think they are mistaken

Cook-off Chart
Wikipedia
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:46 PM   #57
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Interesting, but kinda like suckin a nipple thru a nightgown.

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Old 01-31-2014, 03:23 PM   #58
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Interesting, but kinda like suckin a nipple thru a nightgown.
Haha thanks for the valuable input

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FWIW, I found several notes on alcohol evap from cooking food...beware the comments by people who say it can't cook off due to azeotropes, I'm not 100%, but I think they are mistaken

Cook-off Chart
Wikipedia
I think we're on the same page. Of course it is a fact that due to the azeotrope, once you get to a certain point you can no longer purify via distillation. You have to turn to another method like filtration. It is true that this is only relevant when you're trying to increase ABV like when distilling spirits, like you mentioned, but my point in my previous post was that water and alcohol are much harder to separate completely than one might think. I didn't mean any confusion. Those are the same sources that I linked to, like I said before the takeaway is that more alcohol will remain than most of us realize.

I definitely think you have the right idea, so let me summarize it to give it more emphasis: start with a very low ABV beer, heat it for a long time (hours) and remember that in the end the ABV may still be too high for a recovering addict.

According to that published study, if you had your beer at a simmer (meaning close to 212 degrees, not 170 degrees) for a full hour, you'd have 25% of the alcohol remaining. Which is significant. Heating it to 170-180 for an hour probably won't reduce the alcohol by much, as JimRausch noticed with his lab test. Since you'll be losing water along with the alcohol, I wouldn't trust SG measurements.

We can look at the vapor/liquid behavior of ethanol/water mixtures for a little more guidance:
A 5% ABV beer is going to have 4% ABW. Assuming that the beer contains nothing but ethanol and water, that means you have a 1.6 mol% ethanol solution.

According to this chart, the boiling point of that mixture is going to be up around 206+ degrees F. And that when it does boil, the vapor that evaporates is only going to be around 12 mol% alcohol. Like I said before, the sugars in the beer mean that the boiling point will actually be even closer to 212, but we can assume no sugar here.

As the alcohol leaves the solution the boiling point increases, but the amount of alcohol in the vapor decreases as well. So you can see why you'd need to boil for a long time to get rid of most of the alcohol, since the amount that you're removing gets smaller as the amount of alcohol gets smaller. This is why you get diminishing returns in the simmering study:

Time (h) Alcohol retained
0.2576 40.0345%
0.5678 35.0453%
1.0678 25.0453%
1.579 20.0564%
2.045 10.0076%
2.55467 5.0000%

I just think more lab tests are needed. I really don't have a personal interest in this, I just think a $30 test is in order before giving one of these to a recovering alcoholic. If you bring your beer to a simmer (just under a boil) for a 2 full hours, you'll have 10% of the alcohol remaining. A 0.5% ABV beer might be enough to give a recovering addict a problem. Holding it at 170 isn't going to bring the alcohol down nearly as much.

Of course a vigorous 1-hour boil would get rid of a lot more alcohol than a 1-hour simmer, especially if you use a nice wide stockpot or pan with lots of surface area. Again, I'd want to spend $30 on a lab test just to be safe before giving it to someone I care about.
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:05 PM   #59
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I can't vouch (or look it up from here), but I understand some major commercial bottled sodas have an ABV approaching 1%*. I think as you get down under that level it becomes truly difficult to drink it faster than you metabolize it. It stands to reason there's even an absolute floor as to what can get you drunk no matter how much you consume, given that intestinal absorption is limited by concentration. The math might change if you have a serious liver condition.

That said, be careful what you do to your friends and family on the basis of a theory, even a sound one.

I mentioned this in the jacking thread a while back, but can't you get alcohol content by calculating from the disparity between hydrometer and refractometer readings? Maybe there would be a scale/resolution problem that makes it impractical though, I don't have a refractometer so I can't test.

*(edit: Seems like that's a myth relating to 7-Up's very negligible alcohol content of around %0.05, I guess from ethanol as an extract solvent. The point's the same, though, at e.g. 1% I think you'd accumulate alcohol in your blood way less than half as fast as you would at 2% because it's about the net difference between absorption and the rate that you're metabolizing it off, so there is a floor that is not 0%)

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Old 01-31-2014, 10:15 PM   #60
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Hey what about saleability of homemade NA? I bet it's a regulatory minefield but I bet there are states and counties where it's legal, at least on paper, just by virtue of an ABV threshold in the law.



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