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Old 08-28-2009, 07:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Revvy View Post
It doesn't make sense that it would be based on fermentation temp. That's really has little relevance to the beers ability to hold or not hold co2 a month later at bottling time.
The temperature of the beer at the end of fermentation determines the amount of co2 that is in suspension at that time. In a carboy with an airlock it will stay that way unless you apply heat, in which case it will off gas through the airlock.


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It shouldn't matter because if the beer changes temps (which it does) it lets go or absorbs more co2.
Sure, it will release co2 through the airlock, but it won’t absorb co2 unless it is applied under pressure.


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. . . or sucks in the sanitization solution out of the airlock if it gets cooler. If you have a two piece airlock you can see the co2 variable swing back and forth between the two chambers, and that has to be related to the temp of the fermenter
You’re confusing thermal expansion and contraction with co2 absorption and release.



I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with letting your beer warm up after cold crashing, but that if you don't, it won't change the amount of priming sugar needed. To get to the proper carbonation you add the residual co2 to what can be potentially produced by priming. The residual amount doesn’t raise just because you lowered the temperature after fermentation is complete. Lowering the beer temperature increases its potential to absorb co2, but without applying co2 under pressure it won’t change the volumes in suspension.

According to your interpretation of the chart I would be able to put a glass of my .8 volumes 68 degree post fermented beer in the refrigerator, chill it to 30 degrees and it will magically be carbonated to 1.7 volumes and be ready to drink the next morning.
volumes-chart.jpg  
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:08 PM   #22
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Phew. I find this thread fascinating but it's making my head hurt . I have a brew that I intend to cold crash and bottle next week (my first time to cold crash), so I am keen to figure out what I need to do. I'm no scientist, so somebody actually qualified to talk about this can call BS on any or all of the following...

I think I find myself agreeing with AnOldUR. I can understand that during fermentation the beer absorbs CO2 while our yeastie friends are releasing it throughout the liquid, with the amount of CO2 retained dependent on the temperature. To me, this seems comparable to using a stone to add oxygen to the wort before fermentation. But when the beer is chilled from (say) 64 to 36, the only CO2 for the beer to absorb is in the headspace of the fermenter, and under no extra pressure. I can see that a very small amount will be absorbed at surface of the beer, but I can't understand how the body of the beer will absorb anything. This sounds like trying to aerate a wort by leaving it in a bucket and hoping oxygen will become absorbed on it's own. Just because the liquid has the capacity to absorb more CO2 doesn't mean it actually does - it needs CO2 around to do so and there isn't any outside of the headspace. During a cold crash I would expect to see the airlock react to thermal contraction, but that's all. Similarly, as the beer is warmed back up to room temp I would expect the opposite action in the airlock but very little CO2 to be released until the temperature rose above the level of fermentation, where the beer reaches the point it is holding more CO2 than it is capable of at that temp. But that will only be at the final few degrees of the warming process, assuming a fermentation temp in the mid 60s and a room temp around 70 (approx 0.2 atmospheres, according to the chart AnOldUR posted).

I think Yooper's original suggestion to allow the beer to warm up to bottling temperature is a wise one, because it neatly sidesteps all these arguments and dodgy scientific ponderings. In the end it doesn't matter if we believe that chilling and then warming the beer back up causes the beer to (a) absorb about an atmosphere of CO2 and then release it again, or (b) retain roughly the same amount of CO2 throughout. Either way will work because they arrive at the same point at bottling and priming sugar calculation time, so that's what I think I'm going to do.

I'm going to lie down now

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Old 08-28-2009, 10:29 PM   #23
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I'm no scientist, so somebody actually qualified to talk about this can call BS on any or all of the following...
I agree. Everything I've said comes from either experience or logic (possibly misguided.) It would be good to hear from someone with the proper background who has facts that are backed up by science. So far this conversation has been speculation and layman interpretation.

The only reason I would bottle (or keg) while the beer is still chilled it that it may keep the material that dropped out during the cold crash and compacted at the bottom of the carboy from becoming more soluble and returning back into suspension. But I can't see this being a big problem.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:58 PM   #24
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Have fun in your agreement guys...I'm going to side with the folks that convinced me, and continue to be successful using it the way I have been.

Like I said, I'm not a science wonk, and all that stuff you posited and posted, just went over my head ...I tend to work on instinct, and I'm sure you've noticed my brewing instinct, tends to be right in most cases...and like I said, I use beersmith style carbonation stuff and I input the temp at BOTTLING TIME..and in over a year of using beersmith (closer to two) and doing it that way, I have never had a beer either over or under carbed.....no flats or no gushers from using this method...

For example I am drinking my beautiful saison that was carbed to 3.5 volumes of co2 using the software the way I usually do, and adding quite a lot more sugar that the normal 5 ounces of sugar (I had to dump my copy of beersmith that is on my work computer today since I'm getting a new work comp and will have to re-install it and the beersmith backup copy is on a stick at work so I can't tell you how many ounces but it was iirc around 6.5 or 7 ounces of sugar) and I calculated it at the temp of the beer, and the carbonation is spot on...and no bottle bombs so I didn't f- it up to bad.

Again, my suggestion is get this out of general techniques where only you me and the new guy are paying any attention, and start a thread in the science section and get Kai, and the other brain trust in on it....But get them to try to speak common English when they figure it out, so folks like me can understand.

But until it is something other than your logic -vs- my instinct, I am still going to suggest to people to bring their beer up to room temp and then calculating the the sugar needed.

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Old 08-29-2009, 03:44 AM   #25
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But until it is something other than your logic -vs- my instinct, I am still going to suggest to people to bring their beer up to room temp and then calculating the the sugar needed.
This is actually the conclusion I reached anyway (see the paragraph endorsing Yooper's suggestion of bringing the beer up to room temp), although I understand anyone losing the thread/interest by that point . I was struggling myself...

Besides the scientific guessing game, I totally accept Revvy's wider point about the value of relying on your own instinct, and learning from the results. I've learned a huge amount from many of Revvy's posts on here and have no reason to question his qualifications as a successful brewer of longstanding. My post was simply me trying to figure this stuff out for myself. I'm just a bloody engineer who wants to understand why. It's a PITA sometimes, it really is...

And, yeah, this probably belongs in the dark corners of the science section as Revvy keeps pointing out.
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Old 08-29-2009, 01:27 PM   #26
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. . . Do I need to bring it back up to room temp before I bottle?
Here's my problem with this thread. The OP asked a simple straight forward question. The concensus of the replies that came back were like telling someone with a bottling question that they should be kegging.

Yeah, I'm done with this thread too. Moving the question to the Brew Science may get some answers.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/eff...7/#post1514613
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:43 PM   #27
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I've always used the highest temp the beer has been after fermentation and I've bottled enough to know it works out well. I've bottled beers at 35F and used 75F priming. It works. I add T-58 and it still carbs in under one week.

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Old 08-31-2009, 02:34 PM   #28
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I just posted this on the science thread.

Quote:
I went to the horse's mouth...I knew you guys are all over complicating things still...It occurred to me, that since I use Beersmith to figure it out, I should look at the beersmith help for THEIR definition of "Beer Temp."

AND I WAS RIGHT, Y'ALL!!!!! And I betcha if we emailed, Palmer, and asked him directly what HE means, he would say the same thing.

So here it is DIRECTLY from the instructions on my beersmith software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beersmith
Beer Temp - The temperature of the beer. For bottled beers, this is the temperature at bottling (usually room temperature). For kegged beers, this is the temperature at which the beer will be force carbonated, which may be either room temperature or refrigerator temperature depending on your keg setup.
Not at fermentation, not at the highest temp, not at the coldest temp , not at the conjunction of the planets.....At the time I sit down and bottle!

FTW!
So, if you crash cool it and don't let it warm back up, then all you need to do is take a temp reading of the beer and calculate the amount of sugar (usually lesser) for the cold beer.

So going back to Palmer's Nomograph

Quote:


Figure 65- Nomograph for determining more precise amounts of priming sugar. To use the nomograph, draw a line from the temperature of your beer through the Volumes of CO2 that you want, to the scale for sugar. The intersection of your line and the sugar scale gives the weight of either corn or cane sugar in ounces to be added to five gallons of beer to achieve the desired carbonation level.
For example, if if I crashed cooled and just took it out and my beer is NOW at 35 degrees, and I want 2.5 volumes of co2, Palmer says I need about 2 ounces of priming sugar.

On the other hand my 70 degree beer needs 4 ounces of sugar to get to 2.5 volumes.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:07 PM   #29
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I think he is wrong too. If there is more CO2 in it at 32F than when I bulk aged it at 75 where did the CO2 come from?

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Old 08-31-2009, 03:14 PM   #30
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I think he is wrong too. If there is more CO2 in it at 32F than when I bulk aged it at 75 where did the CO2 come from?
I really don't care, my friend, if people think that Palmer or Brad of Beersmith is wrong...I only care that my interpretation of it is correct. Like I said earlier, it's worked for me, no undercarbed or bottle bombs.
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