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Old 01-05-2009, 05:51 PM   #11
robertjohnson
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Well, considering the extra time and grain (cost) it requires and also realizing that dehusked malts do the same thing, it makes sense that I'd never heard of it before. I don't have access to dehusked grain types though, so I suppose I'll try cold steeping chocolate as a carafa substitute, for example. I might even make a cold steeped porter or stout for very special occasions, especially when I'm going for flavorings that might be more noticeable and meld well with a smoother finish, perhaps flavors like vanilla or licorice. Thanks for the input.

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Old 01-05-2009, 05:55 PM   #12
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The amount of fermentables is negligable with mashing dark grains like roasted barley or chocolate malts.
Yes, I agree. The quantity of fermentables is low. My point is - you lose the unfermentables as well which contribute to body/mouthfeel. Cold steeping only extracts color/flavor and doesn't extract the unfermentable (complex) sugars.

For example, 1# of chocolate malt contributes approximately 25 gravity points to 1 gallon of water at 75% efficiency. In a 5 gallon batch, that's 5 gravity points. Most of the contribution is in the form of complex sugars, but I don't consider that to be "negligible".

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Cold-steeping darker grains does work and adds a nice smooth flavor without the astringencies you typically get with mashing and boiling.
That sounds like an good idea for brewing something like a red ale where the main color contribution is from a minuscule quantity of darker malt. I'm assuming 2 - 4 oz in a typical 5 gallon batch, though. Sounds like something I need to try next time.
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:05 PM   #13
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Yes, I agree. The quantity of fermentables is low. My point is - you lose the unfermentables as well which contribute to body/mouthfeel. Cold steeping only extracts color/flavor and doesn't extract the unfermentable (complex) sugars.
Sure it does. The color and flavor comes from somewhere ... those are unfermentable sugars that are extracted that contribute to the body and mouthfeel.

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For example, 1# of chocolate malt contributes approximately 25 gravity points to 1 gallon of water at 75% efficiency. In a 5 gallon batch, that's 5 gravity points. Most of the contribution is in the form of complex sugars, but I don't consider that to be "negligible".
And, have you taken the gravity readings for a cold-steeped liquid? You'll see that you'll have a gravity above 1.000.

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That sounds like an good idea for brewing something like a red ale where the main color contribution is from a minuscule quantity of darker malt. I'm assuming 2 - 4 oz in a typical 5 gallon batch, though. Sounds like something I need to try next time.
You should try it before you decide and/or argue against it. Put a batch of cold-steep stout next to a normal mashed stout and you'll see that the cold-steeped stout is smooth with plenty of roasted flavors and none of the bitterness you get from heating dark grains. You'll also notice no difference in mouthfeel.
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:12 PM   #14
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what is this about carafa and chocolate?

carafa and chocolate are two completely different malts. chocolate malt will impart a chocolatey flavor while carafa will impart very little flavor (roasted if used in large quantities) and a lot of color.

i don't see how they could possibly be substitutes for each other.

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Old 01-05-2009, 07:11 PM   #15
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Sure it does. The color and flavor comes from somewhere ... those are unfermentable sugars that are extracted that contribute to the body and mouthfeel.

And, have you taken the gravity readings for a cold-steeped liquid? You'll see that you'll have a gravity above 1.000.
Show me on this chart where starch is converted to sugar (simple or complex) using cold (70F?) water. If you can do that, I will agree that cold steeping actually contributes gravity points.



Allow me to restate my original point - Cold steeping only extracts color/flavor and doesn't contribute gravity points (dissolved sugars) to the wort.

So, there is a tradeoff - Cold steeping may result in a less acrid taste but it comes at the expense of efficiency. Choose your poison?
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:23 PM   #16
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um...how much chocolate malt do you really use in a 5 gallon batch? i can't imagine you would lose more than a point in most recipes.

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Old 01-05-2009, 07:40 PM   #17
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um...how much chocolate malt do you really use in a 5 gallon batch? i can't imagine you would lose more than a point in most recipes.
That's not the point. Chocolate malt was just an example of a "darker specialty grain". You could throw in 80L+ Caramel, Special B, etc.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:51 PM   #18
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i thought we were discussing doing this for roasted grains so that we wouldn't get that bitterness and astringency from them. that would not include crystal malts.

and even so it would normally be a very small portion of your grist.

yes, you will lose a small amount of extract potential, but if you want a cleaner, smoother flavor than the option is there.

as this is a hobby, and most of us do not own a company that has to watch it's bottom line, i'll vote for flavor any day of the week, especially when the cost is so low.

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Old 01-05-2009, 07:59 PM   #19
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as this is a hobby, and most of us do not own a company that has to watch it's bottom line, i'll vote for flavor any day of the week, especially when the cost is so low.
Agreed. I'm all for experimentation but, at the same time, one should be aware there is a tradeoff. Nothing is free, not even beer.
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:06 PM   #20
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Nothing is free, not even beer.
my friends might disagree with you. i need to cut them off
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