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View Poll Results: What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.
I've done it and I liked it just fine! 80 11.25%
I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques. 20 2.81%
I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again! 4 0.56%
I've never done it, but it is on my list! 530 74.54%
I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind. 77 10.83%
Voters: 711. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-25-2008, 04:10 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wortmonger
Thanks, I hope to have a lot more information as soon as my other projects are finished and I can brew again. I will document a more accurate and detailed example, with a possible video but it will probably be pictures.
That would definitely be appreciated. Good luck with your other projects!
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:14 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser
No, I only do the secondary and lagering under pressure. I don't have the means for a primary under pressure and feel that there would be to much maintanance necessecary as you may want to adjust the pressure during the fermentation based on the current attenuation of the beer.

But wotrmonger should have a lot to share.

Kai
Yeah I was curious to find more info so I could be responsive to what the pressure the yeast needs at different points in the fermentation. If you took gravity samples and let them sit for awhile to depressurize/decarbonate, would you be able to get accurate readings?
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:00 PM   #83
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Yep, all you need is to degas the sample. I have found that a foodsaver works great for degassing my hydro samples. I put the jar adapter on and vacuum away, shake, then vacuum again. When I finally take my reading, the wort is at room temperature or close enough to take the reading and adjust. I really like the pressure ferment, but will be experimenting with lessor pressure in future batches. 2-5 psi is supposed to be good for yeast growth and from Poindexter's experiment I would say it holds the kraeusen down the same. Can't wait for my next batch on my revamped HLT and MT. I get them back tomorrow, yeah!!!!!!! You will have to check out My HLT Project and see the finished product.

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Old 02-25-2008, 09:56 PM   #84
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Wortmonger,
This is very interesting. I'm a newbie with only 4 extract batches to account for, so pardon my ignorance.
---Will a 7.5 sanke (I could) work for this on 5 gallon batches?
-- I'm confused about the illustration of two kegs connected together. When I read your original post, it reads like it's just one sanke with a modded bleed off valve that has incremental settings. The illustration is something different?
--Other than cutting 3/4" off the spear, the internals are the same, yes?
--When you rack/pump from your primary into a sanke...have you removed the
the internal spear/spring/ball , or are you doing this some other way?

Thanks for any clarity, it's much appreciated.

Karb

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Old 02-25-2008, 10:06 PM   #85
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Yes, a 7.5 gallons Sanke should work just great for a 5 gallon batch.

The illustration shows how you can purge another keg during fermentation. The primary fermenter is the only keg that has 3/4" cut off to avoid trub. When I first started I didn't have the ability to do what I do know and it grew from that. Nothing is removed from either keg, they are rigged up as normal and the tap is the only thing that changes up.

You could if you wanted to take the dip tube spear assembly out and ferment without it in the keg, but then you would have to put something in to get your beer out. You really need to take a Sanke apart and look at it then you will understand better how/why it works the way I talked about and illustrated. I would be happy to answer any more of your questions though.

edit: Sorry, when I transfer from kettle to primary I have the keg hooked up just like any normal keg only the tap has the gas-in check valve removed so air can escape as the beer goes in. When I rack from primary to secondary/serving keg I hook it up just like a normal keg with a normal tap. The target keg gets the same treatment as the primary did when filling from the kettle, only this time a adjustable pressure relief valve is on the gas-in port to slowly relieve pressure and allow for a counter pressure filling of the target keg.

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Old 02-26-2008, 03:40 PM   #86
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I'm working on a way to not have to cut the spear. I am thinking of an extra large racking cane end-piece type of thing you can just put on the end and it will keep the sediment out of the transfer/rack.

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Old 02-27-2008, 12:13 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explosivebeer
Yeah I was curious to find more info so I could be responsive to what the pressure the yeast needs at different points in the fermentation. If you took gravity samples and let them sit for awhile to depressurize/decarbonate, would you be able to get accurate readings?
I think the key to drawing B wrt post 69 this thread is incorrect. Based in my experience with Safale S-05 and Nottingham Yellow, the key should probably read "0.1" instead of gauge pressure X "10" bar.

I found both S-05 and Notti Yellow were very happy yeastie beasties at 5psig, but pretty lazy at 25 psig.

The definition of a bar is at this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_%28unit%29

the difference between 15psi (absolute) and 15 psig (gauge) is explained at this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differe...olute_pressure

What I found with both yeasts is they live at 25psig, but they don't work very hard. At 5 psig they work harder than they do under just an airlock. At 15psig they are bad dudes who get a lot of work done in a hurry.

My third spunded batch is running now. I pitched Chico (White WLP001) and spunded, with the spunding valve set at 15psig. Looking at picture B as referenced, 15psig fits with gauge pressure expressed as x0.1 bar but doesn't make sense at gauge pressure x10bar.

YMMV with other strains, maybe a little.

Basically, pitch your yeast, spund, and let the yeast run up the pressure inside the fermenter to the spunding set point. Once you are closing in on FG, put the fermenter in the cooler and move the spund set point pressure north. A the beer cools, the pressure will drop and the yeast will clean up the diacetyl. Once the beer is cold (hopefully) the yeast will finish the ferment, running the beer up to carb pressure as they finish, and (hopefully) the amount of generated diacetyl will be below the taste threshold.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:19 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbinator
Wortmonger,
This is very interesting. I'm a newbie with only 4 extract batches to account for, so pardon my ignorance.
---Will a 7.5 sanke (I could) work for this on 5 gallon batches?
-- I'm confused about the illustration of two kegs connected together. When I read your original post, it reads like it's just one sanke with a modded bleed off valve that has incremental settings. The illustration is something different?
--Other than cutting 3/4" off the spear, the internals are the same, yes?
--When you rack/pump from your primary into a sanke...have you removed the
the internal spear/spring/ball , or are you doing this some other way?

Thanks for any clarity, it's much appreciated.

Karb
I am doing this with plain stock un-modified Corny's. I take enough gravity samples that I don't feel the need to cut any spears.

If the beer is really really good and I have a hunch that Jessica Simpson is just going to knock on my door in a greasy T-shirt needing help changing a tire, I'll tap the fermenting keg and run it to clear, and then hook up a transfer line so only clear beer goes to the serving keg. Doesn't happen very often.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:40 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poindexter
Basically, pitch your yeast, spund, and let the yeast run up the pressure inside the fermenter to the spunding set point. Once you are closing in on FG, put the fermenter in the cooler and move the spund set point pressure north. A the beer cools, the pressure will drop and the yeast will clean up the diacetyl. Once the beer is cold (hopefully) the yeast will finish the ferment, running the beer up to carb pressure as they finish, and (hopefully) the amount of generated diacetyl will be below the taste threshold.
I don't agree with this at all. You should do the entire fermentation at fermentation temperature at whatever pressure you are wanting to (5-15 fermenting and then upwards of 30psi for carbonation). Then a few gravity points from completion you simply let the keg build up as much pressure as it wants (Sankes will hold 60 psi Cornys will hold 130 psi so you don't have to worry about blowing one up because you shouldn't get much over 30 psi) and this is where you are getting your carbonation from. After fermentation is completed, (I wait 1 week total from pitch) then turn down the temperature or move your brew to a lower temperature place where you can crash cool to clarify your beer and lower the pressure. Pressure decreases with temperature so this is where you dial in the carbonation level wanted and let it rest cold (like 33-35*F) and crash the yeast to the bottom of the fermenter for 1 week. Then transfer under counter pressure to your serving keg and VIOLA!!!! The diacetyl is taken back in by the yeast the couple of days after fermentation has ceased but is still at fermentation temperature. Fermentation is usually over in 3-4 days so you have 3-4 days after that to clean up the diacetyl. The pressure doesn't matter for diacetyl removal only the yeast, and the yeast are still working at 30 psi just not as fast. They are also not working on producing alcohol as they are to removing the diacetyl and will continue to work once the beer goes through crash cooling. Diacetyl rests are usually done a little warmer than fermentation temperature, but then again this is not your normal way to brew, so it is different. I have not had a single problem with any batches with the exception of the very first one and that was my fault for using a bad recipe and other brewing mishaps during the mash.
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:54 AM   #90
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Ok, thought I would document my last batch since it is already done fermenting and is carbonated waiting to be crash cooled and transfered.

So, this last Thursday I decided it was about time to try out my newly updated brewery and then write-up the fermentation technique the way I did it this time. After chilling the crystal clear wort to 60*F by recirculating the kettle through a Therminator CFC and then back into the hopsack inside the kettle, I transfered the pitched wort into my sealed and purged keg fermenter. I did this by hooking my hose to my pump and then Sanke tap leaving the gas-side open for air to escape as the wort came in. Then I rig up my spunding valve and set it to 5 psi. I set my lagerator to 65*F and figured the next day I would be there from 60*F. Only got up to 62*F and the whole freezer was full of CO2 so bad it hurt your nose. Wow, fermentation really took off with a stir plate starter (my first time) and so I agreed to take a sample the next day. The beer warmed up to 65*F that night and I left it for the morning. Saturday morning comes and I take my reading easily through the spigot on the tap, and low-and-behold I am down to 1.012 from my OG of 1.045 (after redoing my math and figuring out why I thought I had missed my numbers). That is 2 points from estimated FG. Time to untap and let her charge up full of carbonation to about 27.8 psi @65*F. Now, I just wait until the complete 7 days is up and drop the temperature down to 35*F for another week. After that it is transfer to serving and another week at room temperature before the kegerator.

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