New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!




View Poll Results: What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.
I've done it and I liked it just fine! 75 11.00%
I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques. 20 2.93%
I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again! 4 0.59%
I've never done it, but it is on my list! 510 74.78%
I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind. 73 10.70%
Voters: 682. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2008, 11:14 PM   #61
TheDuke
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 20
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

This is quite interesting and gave me a thorough headache, lol. I am a severe newbie, but I grasp the concept and see how it would make things a heck of a lot easier.

Awesome.



__________________
TheDuke is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2008, 05:07 AM   #62
r0n
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2
Default valve parts list?

Poindexter: could you post a parts list for the Spunding valve that you built using the parts flagged by Wortmonger?

It would be great to know what additional fittings are used to connect those parts to each other and to a soda keg.



__________________
r0n is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2008, 05:19 AM   #63
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,100
Liked 23 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Well Ron, all the pieces should be on here. I used a 1/4" brass "T" and my gauge and adjustable pressure relief fit 1/4". I think soda kegs have a 1/4" fitting on them but I am not certain.

__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2008, 07:23 PM   #64
r0n
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2
Default

Thanks! The part I'm still having trouble with is the connection of the T to the soda keg connector, which uses a pressure fitting. So far I haven't found an adapter to connect one to the other. Any ideas?

__________________
r0n is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2008, 11:34 PM   #65
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,100
Liked 23 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Sorry, I had to make a tailpiece for me to get from 1/4" from the "t" to a beer thread on my Snake tap. I finally found one but they were more than it cost me to make a couple out of nylon at a machine shop. I am not familiar with cornies as well as I am Sankes so I would be the wrong man to ask. I know they have all kinds of fittings that go on the connectors for a corny and I assume they use the same flare fitting (I believe that is what they are called). I have one that came with my beergun, but I am keeping it with the gun until I sell it one day. Ask around, or better yet post a thread asking. That is sure to get a bunch more help in finding the fitting you need.

__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2008, 08:25 PM   #66
Poindexter
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Poindexter's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: interior Alaska
Posts: 1,210
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0n
Poindexter: could you post a parts list for the Spunding valve that you built using the parts flagged by Wortmonger?

It would be great to know what additional fittings are used to connect those parts to each other and to a soda keg.
Hey Ron, sorry for the delay. 01-19 I was moving out of Los Angeles, moved in in Dallas 01-26, still catching up.

Parts list:

adjustable pressure relief valve as described by wortmonger
SS pressure gauge as described by wortmonger

1/4" stainless steel T fitting

about 12-15 inches of 1/4" ID hose

6 of screw type hose clamps

"grey post" for Corny from LHBS with 1/4" hose barb

adapter from valve to 1/4" hose barb

adapter from pressure gauge to 1/4 hose barb

I found both of the last two at Lowe's while I was picking up 1/4" hose and the 6 hose clamps anyway, the data provided on the McMaster Carr site was correct.

I did use teflon tape on the thread to thread connections.

Sorry for the delay.
__________________
Poindexter is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2008, 08:30 PM   #67
Poindexter
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Poindexter's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: interior Alaska
Posts: 1,210
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

DOH!!

EUREKA!!

My first batch primaried at 5psi, then ferment carbed to about 18psi at room temp on the way to final force carb after cooling. The diacetyl never did mature out.

My second batch was doing great primaried at 25psi, but I started tasting butter after racking and cranking the pressure up to 35psi a couple days ago.

So I went and looked at the link Kaiser posted, post #12 this thread, link to wiki yada, yada, again. It looks like in drawing B I am supposed to ferment at "11" and then mature at "7" psi to make the diacetyl go away.

So I reduced the pressure on my current batch back to 20psi, in a couple hours I'll get it down to 15psi, and when I get home from the concert tonight I'll take it on down to 12 or so. Looking for the butter flavor to fade back out.

If I am right I'll primary the next one at 50-60 psi and then back it down to 25psi at room temp for maturation. Then crash cool...

__________________
Poindexter is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-02-2008, 11:29 PM   #68
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,100
Liked 23 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Diacetyl is amplified with pressure, you have to do a rest. My first batch I had a bad recipe and it did have a buttery taste, but I haven't had this problem since. I think higher pressure isn't the way to go. Yeast are supposed to like 5 psi but start having trouble closer to 30 psi. This is why I didn't do greater pressure until the very last couple of gravity points. I fermented at 65*F so I assume this took care of the diacetyl since it stayed there a couple of days after fermentation was complete and before I crash cooled for another week. Lagers I plan on a week of rest then crash cool, but have only had 1 bad batch doing this (like I said the first, and it was a horrible recipe anyways).

__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2008, 07:13 PM   #69
Poindexter
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Poindexter's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: interior Alaska
Posts: 1,210
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wortmonger
Diacetyl is amplified with pressure.
I agree with this statement. My first batch under pressure ferment was an English Pale Ale at 1.040 OG headed for 1.014-1.012. I ran the primary at 5psig. It was awesome. Every hydro sample was tastier than the last. Best beer I had ever made.

When it got to 1.018 I cranked up the spunding valve hoping to get it to 25psi at room temp. I worked out that if i could get to 25psi room temp I would have 10-12psi in the keg once it was cooled, and I would be ready to serve. The ferment crapped out at 18psi, that is I got the final gravity before I got the pressure I wanted. So I forced it the last few psi after it was cold - but I started tasting diacetyl as the pressure went up in the end of the ferment; and the diacetyl flavor never went away.

So I went back to the wiki.

Here is the wiki article I am about to quote:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers

Here is the relevant text I followed:

Quote:
Section 2 para 6, Conventional ... German

During the secondary fermentation (a.k.a lagering) the tanks are closed and the pressure build-up is controlled by a pressure sensitive bleeder valve. This system, called Spundungsapparat, ensures the proper carbonation of the beer during lagering. The German Purity Law prohibits the use of non-fermentation CO2 for beer carbonization. It is also more economical for a brewery to use the CO2 produced during fermentation.
So it must be my fault.

So I started another batch, a Roggen. I ran the primary at 25psi. All was right in the world, I scored a very tasty example recipe of a style that is going to go with lots of different food. Again, every gravity sample was awesome.

Target carb level is similar to a hefe, so I was looking for 32-35psi at room temp, so I could cool and serve. But two hours after I turned up the spunding valve the butter flavor was back.

My diacetyl was creeping up with the pressure again. So I looked at the wiki again, and just stared and stared at this drawing. And stared.

Here is the key:

solid line: temp in Centigrade

dot/ dash dot/ dash extract%, fermentable sugars remaining

dash/ dash/ dash/ dash diacetyl amount

dot/ dot/ dash/ dot/ dot/ dash gauge pressure x 10. bar.



So I turned the pressure down. Though it is early it seems like the diacetyl is going away. Probably I'll have to force carb the Roggen, but that beats pouring it out.

Does it seem to you that the picture and the text are pointing in two different directions?

What variables could change to make both sets of instructions correct some of the time?

TIA,
P

EDIT: 02-09-08. After six days at 12 psi the diacetyl is gone and I love my Roggen again. I'll have to force carb it the last few psi to get it to serving pressure, but I am not going to have to pour it out. The week at 12psi not only got the diacteyl back out, but now I can taste the actual rye distinct from the barley that was last aparent in the mash tun. My gravity was 1.020 when I walked the pressure down from 25psi to 12. I have a gravity sample off gassing on the counter top now.
__________________

Last edited by Poindexter; 02-09-2008 at 11:14 PM.
Poindexter is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2008, 08:31 PM   #70
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,100
Liked 23 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

You don't turn the pressure down, you lower the temperature. Lowering the temperature lowers the pressure. I do this after I am carbonated to desired level. The couple of days at this level after fermentation is through removes the diacetyl, then I crank down the temperature, not pressure. the pressure drops automatically as temperature decreases. If you have this problem again, ferment until you are a couple of points off, remove your spunding valve so you are completely sealed up. At the end of two weeks total from pitch, crash cool and re-tap with your spunding valve and remove any excess carbonation pressure via the valve. You have to give the yeast time to remove the diacetyl. Th graph shows you that when the pressure isn't going up anymore the diacetyl is starting to come down. This is also, as the graph shows,right before the sugar is used up. The graph also shows that temperature isn't decreased until after the diacetyl is almost gone. Pressure amplifies diacetyl production but its reduction is also fast. You have to let the yeast do it's thing.



__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Teri Fahrendorf's article on Closed System Pressurized Fermentation WortMonger General Techniques 6 12-15-2012 01:40 PM
Closed System Wort Cooling Works The Pol Equipment/Sanitation 32 10-15-2009 10:58 PM
Closed System Brewing Kettle....Project fifelee DIY Projects 19 10-10-2008 03:08 PM
Carboy to Keg - Closed system Orfy Bottling/Kegging 3 09-02-2007 04:50 PM
Closed system racking Brewing Clamper Bottling/Kegging 5 08-17-2007 09:02 PM