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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Carapils in the mash. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BigEd
Given a long enough time that might happen but it is not a concern assuming the typical 60-90 minute mash period.
I guess I don't see why I can take pale malt and mash it to take starches to dextrins to sugars but when I mash cara malts the dextrins don't get converted to sugars at the same rate. It seems like it should take longer to convert starches to sugars than dextrins to sugars. The only thing I could understand is if the dextrins in cara malts are somehow modified so that they could no longer be broken down to sugars.

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Originally Posted by BigEd

Steeping only exists in the world of extract brewing. In all-grain everybody is in the pool. The reason steeping exists is to allow extract brewers to soak out some flavors and/or colors from grains that do not require mashing. Do not make the mistake of presuming that the techniques you are using as an extract brewer are the basis for all-grain brewing. Please see response for assumption #2. While the enzymes in the mash will work on the long chain sugars and dextrins of cara/crystal malts in the mash, in practical terms the effect for the duration of a normal mash is negligible. The addition of "body-building" dextrin malts to an all-grain mash where the mash schedule will control the main body and finish of the beer while at the same time a controlled amount of dextrin malt will give the beer the texture enhancement the brewer desires is one of the subtle tweaks available to the all-grain brewer but beyond the reach of extract brewing.
I think steeping could still have a role in all grain brewing. There is no reason everything has to go in the mash. That said I agree with the rest you said in that paragraph.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:22 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Buna_Bere

Most people believe it's the extra dextrins from mashing higher, or the extra dextrins from cara-malts that give a beer extra body. After listening to Dr. Bamforth talk about about dextrins, I don't believe this to be true. Dr. Bamforth talks about an experiment adding dextrins to a beer where it was found the amount of dextrins you'd have to add to a beer to increase the body was such a large amount, that it has to be something else. I think, and I've heard others say the same, that the body of a beer is coming from the proteins.

Here's a couple quotes from George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science
"for the most part, the protein content of malt is similar to that of the barley from which it was made. There is some continuation of protein breakdown in the mash, but the extent is greatly influenced by the mashing schedule used (Fix and Fix,1997)."
"Some proteins are precipitated during wort chilling (the so-called"cold break") as well as during fermentation and aging, but most are passed unaltered to the finished beer. The middle-molecular-weight proteins tend to make positive contributions to beer foam, as well as increasing the "maltiness" of beer in ways that are still not completely understood."
I think this is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. Flaked barley and flaked wheat give nice body and head retention through their proteins. I guess when you malt barley, these proteins might be denatured by the barley sprout and crash out in the break material because flaked barley seems to behave much different than something like pale malt. Maybe cara malts contain most of the proteins that flaked barley does but has had some conversion that has taken place so that they don't have to be mashed. If this were the case, darker cara malts wold probably have more protein denaturation and contribute less to body and foam retention.

Do you know where you heard Dr. Bamforth talk about this?
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Old 08-18-2012, 06:00 AM   #13
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Do you know where you heard Dr. Bamforth talk about this?
Here's a link
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/582
go to about 12:45 seconds in and he starts talking about dextrins shortly after.
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:45 PM   #14
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I think this is part of the answer why dextrines don't break down in the mash.

"Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long."

Some of the short chains may be broken down in the mash but the longer ones will not.

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Old 08-18-2012, 05:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by RM-MN
I think this is part of the answer why dextrines don't break down in the mash.

"Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long."

Some of the short chains may be broken down in the mash but the longer ones will not.
Starch has the same chemical structure but has hundreds of sugar units. Basically a dextrin is a small starch. If starch can be broken down by amylase then dextrin shouldn't stand a chance.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:51 PM   #16
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FWIW: http://morebeer.com/articles/usingdextrinmalt

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Old 08-18-2012, 05:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ArcaneXor
Cool thanks. I was trying to read up on what happens during the roasting of these starches that makes then unconvertable by the amylase enzymes. Sorry it took me so long to believe you guys but I had a hard time believing that they'd just all of a sudden become unconverable by enzymes.
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Old 08-18-2012, 06:31 PM   #18
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Yeah after reading up more it sounds like the final step in making cara malts produces caramelization reactions which change the molecule structure of these dextrins and prevent them from being converted by enzymes. The stewing process basically takes wet malted grains and uses the enzymes inside the grains to convert the starches to sugars and dextrins. In the next step the grains are heated and this is where caramelization takes place.

My guess of why briess says that carapils should be mashed is that the caramelization reactions have not gone very far and there is a mixture of caramelized dextrins and normal dextrins. These normal dextrins should be mashed to convert the to sugars but the caramelized dextrins are unfermentable and can not be converted to sugars by the enzymes. For other darker cara malts most the dextrins are caramelized and mashing isn't needed.

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Old 08-19-2012, 05:23 AM   #19
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Cool thanks. I was trying to read up on what happens during the roasting of these starches that makes then unconvertable by the amylase enzymes. Sorry it took me so long to believe you guys but I had a hard time believing that they'd just all of a sudden become unconverable by enzymes.

doubting thomas
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