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Old 08-18-2012, 12:57 AM   #1
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Might be confused on this so please correct my error.

Assumption #1: Carapils is useful because it contributes dextrins giving the beer body. It might also contribute some sweetness like any "cara" malt.

Concern: Enzymes in the mash can convert the dextrins in carapils (that we want in our final) during the mash into simple sugars that will be fermented by the yeast. This also applies to other "cara" malts.

It seems like it is somewhat pointless from this viewpoint (if I'm not missing something) to mash "cara" malts. In extract brewing this isn't an issue. In all grain though it seems like we should still be steeping these grains if we want all of their body improving powers.

Thoughts?

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Old 08-18-2012, 01:21 AM   #2
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carapils dextrins are unfermentable, you mash them to get the dextrins into your kettle.

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Old 08-18-2012, 01:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastoak
carapils dextrins are unfermentable, you mash them to get the dextrins into your kettle.
I guess I don't understand why the dextrins in carapils can't be converted to sugar by the enzymes in the mash?
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Old 08-18-2012, 01:33 AM   #4
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I guess I don't understand why the dextrins in carapils can't be converted to sugar by the enzymes in the mash?
Well, crystal malts are a special breed of malts. They are "premashed" so to speak, by stewing and then kilning. This actually results in a crystalline sugar structure. The sugars they provide then are available without mashing, via steeping. But of course, they can go right in the mash.

The great thing about crystal malts is they provide body, flavor, and color, along with a bit of fermentable sugars (but not that much). They are great for head retention as a result.
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:01 AM   #5
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I was recently reading Brewing: Science and Practice, which is an insanely expensive and extensive encyclopedia of advanced brewing techniques. In it, they mentioned that mashing converted grains with uncoverted grains causes a decrease in efficiency. They showed a bunch of experiments which supported their findings, but didn't go into much detail as to explain "why" this was the case. I always believed it did not matter in the past. But I currently divide my mashing grains from my steeping grains, and mash/steep them separately. Not a big deal for me since I use dual kettles anyway.

http://www.amazon.com/Brewing-Practi.../dp/0849325471

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Old 08-18-2012, 03:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper

Well, crystal malts are a special breed of malts. They are "premashed" so to speak, by stewing and then kilning. This actually results in a crystalline sugar structure. The sugars they provide then are available without mashing, via steeping. But of course, they can go right in the mash.

The great thing about crystal malts is they provide body, flavor, and color, along with a bit of fermentable sugars (but not that much). They are great for head retention as a result.
Yeah I guess my understanding was that the "premashed" process that cara grains go through was basically the same as what occurs if you were to mash at a high temperature where the same enzymes convert the starches to dextrins and sugars. Since its at a high temp you get a lot of dextrins like if you mashed at 160F for example. The caramelization process they go through after the conversion takes place as the roasting temp goes up might take some of the sugars and perform some reaction that makes them unfermentable. It seems that the degree of fermentability would depend on the darkness of cara malt.
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:26 AM   #7
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an insanely expensive and extensive encyclopedia of advanced brewing techniques.
Haha, I love that description.
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHop View Post
Might be confused on this so please correct my error.

Assumption #1: Carapils is useful because it contributes dextrins giving the beer body. It might also contribute some sweetness like any "cara" malt.
Dextrins are not perceived on the human palette as sweet. They dwell in the nether region between sugars and starches and convey almost no flavor but are large enough molecules to bring a sense of presence which is perceived as body & fullness.

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Originally Posted by DrHop View Post
Concern: Enzymes in the mash can convert the dextrins in carapils (that we want in our final) during the mash into simple sugars that will be fermented by the yeast. This also applies to other "cara" malts.
Given a long enough time that might happen but it is not a concern assuming the typical 60-90 minute mash period.

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Originally Posted by DrHop View Post
It seems like it is somewhat pointless from this viewpoint (if I'm not missing something) to mash "cara" malts. In extract brewing this isn't an issue. In all grain though it seems like we should still be steeping these grains if we want all of their body improving powers.
Steeping only exists in the world of extract brewing. In all-grain everybody is in the pool. The reason steeping exists is to allow extract brewers to soak out some flavors and/or colors from grains that do not require mashing. Do not make the mistake of presuming that the techniques you are using as an extract brewer are the basis for all-grain brewing. Please see response for assumption #2. While the enzymes in the mash will work on the long chain sugars and dextrins of cara/crystal malts in the mash, in practical terms the effect for the duration of a normal mash is negligible. The addition of "body-building" dextrin malts to an all-grain mash where the mash schedule will control the main body and finish of the beer while at the same time a controlled amount of dextrin malt will give the beer the texture enhancement the brewer desires is one of the subtle tweaks available to the all-grain brewer but beyond the reach of extract brewing.
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHop View Post

Assumption #1: Carapils is useful because it contributes dextrins giving the beer body.

In all grain though it seems like we should still be steeping these grains if we want all of their body improving powers.

Thoughts?
Most people believe it's the extra dextrins from mashing higher, or the extra dextrins from cara-malts that give a beer extra body. After listening to Dr. Bamforth talk about about dextrins, I don't believe this to be true. Dr. Bamforth talks about an experiment adding dextrins to a beer where it was found the amount of dextrins you'd have to add to a beer to increase the body was such a large amount, that it has to be something else. I think, and I've heard others say the same, that the body of a beer is coming from the proteins.

Here's a couple quotes from George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science
"for the most part, the protein content of malt is similar to that of the barley from which it was made. There is some continuation of protein breakdown in the mash, but the extent is greatly influenced by the mashing schedule used (Fix and Fix,1997)."
"Some proteins are precipitated during wort chilling (the so-called"cold break") as well as during fermentation and aging, but most are passed unaltered to the finished beer. The middle-molecular-weight proteins tend to make positive contributions to beer foam, as well as increasing the "maltiness" of beer in ways that are still not completely understood."
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
I was recently reading Brewing: Science and Practice, which is an insanely expensive and extensive encyclopedia of advanced brewing techniques. In it, they mentioned that mashing converted grains with uncoverted grains causes a decrease in efficiency. They showed a bunch of experiments which supported their findings, but didn't go into much detail as to explain "why" this was the case. I always believed it did not matter in the past. But I currently divide my mashing grains from my steeping grains, and mash/steep them separately. Not a big deal for me since I use dual kettles anyway.

http://www.amazon.com/Brewing-Practi.../dp/0849325471
I have that book laying around, never fit it into my busy reading schedule. I never realized it was that pricey! Is it worth the read?
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