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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Candi Syrup/sugar into boil and primary, strengths of weakness of both
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Old 09-03-2010, 03:29 PM   #1
KyleWolf
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Default Candi Syrup/sugar into boil and primary, strengths of weakness of both

Hey everyone,

So I am planning a belgian tripel tomorrow and looking to add some either candi syrup or candi sugar to the beer, about 3lbs of sugar with 11.5lbs of grain.

I know there is a lot of talk about when to add the sugar, whether it is at the end of the boil to sterilize, ensure the sugar goes into solution, etc, or during the end of primary to let the yeast eat up the more complex sugars first to avoid the "lazy yeast syndrome".

I figure there are strengths and weaknesses to each technique. Most of which are the strengths of the other. Adding sugar into the boil will do everything I mentioned above, and maybe even give it a chance to darken/caramelize/invert if it hasn't already (that last one I am unsure about as I have not made this candi syrup/sugar yet).

Adding sugar to the fermentation will make sure you have a strong fermentation that lets the yeasts do the job they are meant to do, and you get a drier beer which is important in atleast some belgians.

Now a few questions I have about these techniques, mostly pertaining to adding sugar during primary.

1) Are you limited to using candi syrup? Would candi sugar (aka hard crack/rock candy) not go into solution well without heat? and I guess that could be said about the syrup too, would it just fall out of solution and sit on the bottom (in some thoughts that wouldn't be bad as it is just sitting with the flocculated yeast)

2) I am sure you have to be much more careful about how you store the syrup/candi into order to ensure it is sterlized properly since it doesn't have the chance to be sterilized during the boil. Is that right?

3) I understand the concept that the yeast may not chew through all of the maltose, however, with so many simple sugars already digested, is it possible you would want some of the maltose to remain undigested, that way you could get a fuller mouthfeel while sacrificing fewer gravity points. (that is assuming pure sugar + water + yeast= gravity below 1.000 since pure alcohol is less dense than water).

and my final question 4) Is deciding how you are going to add your simple sugars going to change at what temp you mash at? (these are my assumptions) If you are adding it to the boil, assuming less maltose is going to be fermented due to lazy yeast, you would mash lower to ensure as many sugars are fermentable as possible. That is compared to if you add during primary, where you know a majority of the malts will be digested, you may mash higher to ensure the beer maintains atleast some body.

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. I know each works and why, I just want to know the finer points of the rationale. Thanks everyone.

-Kyle

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Old 09-03-2010, 04:24 PM   #2
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1 You can use a variety of sugar such as honey when I’ve used rock candi I add to boil the idea is to increase gravity not sit at the bottom of your primary with the fishes you could add the rock candi to a little hot water and dissolve it first


2) Boil before you add to wart to sterilize

3) Sure or just add a little maltodextrine to the boil or mash above 150 instead of 148 and or shorten the mash time to increase the body yet I digress …IMO a tripel should be on the dry side
4 I like my Tripels dry and strong so I don’t (75 min mash at 148) with honey I add at the end or as close as possible and candi the last 30 minutes or so of the boil a pound of candi raises gravity about .04 roughly! If not carful you can easily overshoot your target OG particularly adding sugars during fermentation

IMO..it’s best to add all sugars during the boil

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Old 09-03-2010, 05:21 PM   #3
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I am certainly a proponent of incrementally adding the sugars, about a pound at a time after the primary maltose fermentation is starting to wind down. If it is table sugar, rock sugar or dextrose, I melt it in boiling water, cool and dump it in. If it is honey, I add it directly to secondary. Honey is quite aniseptic and not a bacteria harboring media.

IMO...

This technique has helped me make some great belgian beers.....super low finishing gravities...

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Old 09-03-2010, 06:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleWolf View Post
Hey everyone,
1) Are you limited to using candi syrup? Would candi sugar (aka hard crack/rock candy) not go into solution well without heat? and I guess that could be said about the syrup too, would it just fall out of solution and sit on the bottom (in some thoughts that wouldn't be bad as it is just sitting with the flocculated yeast)

2) I am sure you have to be much more careful about how you store the syrup/candi into order to ensure it is sterlized properly since it doesn't have the chance to be sterilized during the boil. Is that right?

3) I understand the concept that the yeast may not chew through all of the maltose, however, with so many simple sugars already digested, is it possible you would want some of the maltose to remain undigested, that way you could get a fuller mouthfeel while sacrificing fewer gravity points. (that is assuming pure sugar + water + yeast= gravity below 1.000 since pure alcohol is less dense than water).

and my final question 4) Is deciding how you are going to add your simple sugars going to change at what temp you mash at? (these are my assumptions) If you are adding it to the boil, assuming less maltose is going to be fermented due to lazy yeast, you would mash lower to ensure as many sugars are fermentable as possible. That is compared to if you add during primary, where you know a majority of the malts will be digested, you may mash higher to ensure the beer maintains atleast some body.
IMO I think 3lbs of sugar is pushing it with 11.5lbs of grain but go for it...

1. You can use table sugar, powdered sugar, turbinado, brown sugar, molasses, honey, etc. as well. Anything that is a heavier density is going to drop to the bottom, but I don't believe it would be the end of the world if that happened. You can use candi sugar, but it won't dissolve into the solution very quickly, especially sitting at the bottom.

2. You generally want to boil whatever sugar you are adding in some water -- if not in the wort boil -- to dissolve it and sterilize.

3. You could mash higher to leave unfermentable sugars, but as rugman said, tripels are usually a drier beer, so you would actually want a thinner beer.

4. You could, but I don't. As said above, tripels are drier beers so you actually want that effect from adding sugar. If you were, say, making a porter and adding sugar to the boil to "cheat" your way to a higher ABV you would definitely need to mash higher to account for the added sugar so you don't end up with a thin porter. Same might be said if you were making a really big beer by feeding the beer sugar in the fermenter...
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by permo View Post
I am certainly a proponent of incrementally adding the sugars, about a pound at a time after the primary maltose fermentation is starting to wind down. If it is table sugar, rock sugar or dextrose, I melt it in boiling water, cool and dump it in. If it is honey, I add it directly to secondary. Honey is quite aniseptic and not a bacteria harboring media.

IMO...

This technique has helped me make some great belgian beers.....super low finishing gravities...
So would you say, add 1lb of sugar (in solution) each day for 3 days once primary has started to settle down and krausen is about to fall?
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Currently in the works...

Primary 1:Honey Rye Saison
Primary 2:
Primary 3:
Secondary:
Secondary:

Up next: Rye Amber Ale, Brett Braggot.
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:05 PM   #6
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I'm kind of in the same boat. I brewed an AG Tripel on Saturday with about .75-1.0 lbs of organic cane sugar in place of 1 lb candi sugar (LHBS forgot to put in my order).

I ended up with an OG of 1.075 (but really should've been closer to 1.080-1.082). I'm considering adding in a boiled dextrose mix (2 cups dextrose to 1 quart water, boil, then cool) to my fermenter today. I initially used a WLP500 yeast starter, so it should be able to handle the extra dextrose mix.

FWIW, I'm just past the initial "vigorous" stage of primary fermentation and the krauzen has started to fall just a little.

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Old 10-26-2010, 06:14 PM   #7
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Not sure if this has been anyone else's experience, but the CO2 bubbling picked up its pace within 20 minutes of me dumping in the dextrose mix! I was pleasantly surprised - it quickened from around 60-65 bubbles per minute, to about 70-75 as I was leaving my house.

I used 2 cups of dextrose to 2 cups water and boiled for 10 minutes, cooled and dumped into the fermenter.

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Old 10-27-2010, 02:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by permo View Post
I am certainly a proponent of incrementally adding the sugars, about a pound at a time after the primary maltose fermentation is starting to wind down.

This technique has helped me make some great belgian beers.....super low finishing gravities...

Just add it to the boil, no difference in FG in dozens, upon dozens of triples/blonds....

Easy to test for yourself>
1 batch add sugar to boil, say last 20min as when adding whirlflock(easy to remember that way)

1 batch add in fermentor
--

Oh the Belgian brewers add sugar during the boil as the hop utilization is calculated based on the gravity of the wort, which includes sugar.


Been covered before>
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/view...hp?f=1&t=94139


Great quote from babalu87:

"IMNSHO feeding is something brought about by poor fermentation practices (IE improper yeast pitches/lack of aeration)"
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