Bubble Size - Keg vs Bottle

Some recent feedback from a competition judge noted that one of my beers' bubbles were "too big" and the beer itself would benefit from bottle conditioning. In my info i provided, i didn't mention that i kegged, and given enough time to condition in a keg, i've always equated kegging with bottling. As in - if done properly, there shouldn't be a difference to the final product.

The fact that this judge was able to identify that i kegged, seemingly based on bubble size (maybe from a lack of lees, though?) leads me to think there IS a potential result difference from each technique.

Thoughts?

It may just be perception, but to me, my kegged beers seem to have "smaller" bubbles after about 3-4 weeks. How new was your submission?

Was the comment referring to the bubbles in the head or the beer itself? If it's the head that should really be more of a function of the formulation of the recipe and the volumes of CO2 than the carbonation method. If it's the beer itself that judge should be slapped, because that's the most asinine thing to comment about on a beer. Show me one BJCP guideline that mentions bubble size in the beer.

The judge should have listed an email address on the score sheet. If it's not clear, I would get in touch with them and see if they can remember what it was they meant and for some more information about the subject.

I have noticed that bottle conditioned homebrews tend to have tighter, smaller bubbles in the head than kegged bathes. It's anecdotal at best, since I rarely bottle myself. However i've seen it enough times that I wouldn't be afraid to say it is consistent.

Plenty of this debate in regards to sparkling wines too. Particularly with champagne. I din't understand the science behind it, but it seems to be the same in that force carbonation is said to give a coarser bubble. I dont know if there was a difference with keg conditioning too.

*edit: found my shortcuts. Was hard to do from a phone*
look up Gérard Liger-Belair. From http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff/8201champagne.html "He recently showed that, contrary to expectation, both champagne and a low-quality sparkling wine have the same diffusion coefficients, even though their bubbles have different sizes [J. Agric. Food Chem., 51, 7560 (2003)]."

He did compare to other liquids including soda, per a reference in http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031216075207.htm

While we can't compare directly with this information to beer, I wouldn't be surprised to hear of some similar correlation. (But you know, wine and champagne gets all the research money in france so I'm sure we'll hear it there first. Now if Germany has professor in physical sciences, I'd expect one of you to list him and his papers.)

Bottom line so far seems to allude to that there is a difference. Just that no one is sure exactly why.

*edit 2* Here's a link for beer:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/1206-mathematics_of_beer_bubbles.htm
Most things that I found were in regards to creating more beer foam, not of the bubble's fineness. Largely due in part to the protein matter and other ingredients that don't exist in champagne which create further nucleation points.

I find that big bubbles are due to an inmature beer. The longer it has to sit and absorb C02. the finer the bubbles will be.

RoadKing said:

I find that big bubbles are due to an inmature beer. The longer it has to sit and absorb C02. the finer the bubbles will be.

Click to expand...

I have to agree, I think that proper force carbe techniques (set-it-and-forget-it) up to 3-4 weeks makes a noticeable difference in bubble size.

I would also have to agree that recipe formulation, and brewing technique plays some roll in carbonation.

For instance I am drinking a APA that has ony been on gas for 8 days, has good carbonation, and a nice head, but I guarantee 3 weeks from now the head will be much thicker and creamier, than it is now, and wherever the co2 is expelled from the nucleation sites in the glass, the bubble will appear much smaller.

Last note, I also believe that carbonation psi plays a rol, if you are carbonating to say 1.5-2 volumes, opposed to a beer that is carbonating to 2.5-3 volumes, I'd have to make the assertion that the more highly carbed beer will end up with smaller bubbles due to the amount of co2 dissolved into solution, heck while we are at it, tempurature and barometric ressure probably play a role as well.

The physics and laws of gas are complex, and many variable play a crucial role, so depending on the temperature, your altitude, what the weather is like, and how you feel on a particular day may have a impact on co2 bubbles.

Cheers!

In continuation I forgot to mention...
I do have to agree that it should be some sort of commentary/food for thought and personal preference more than any ratable score. I don't know if it would be otherwise.

Given that the sparkling wine I buy is around 10 bucks, I don't care that it's force carbed, or vat carbed, or whatever. It tastes good enough, it's as fizzy as I like it. I'm not complaining about the bubbles. If I were buying expensive champagne, it'd be different. Same thing with beer. If I were spending $70+ on a single 750ml beer, I'm sure there'd be some other thoughts about the process and the quality of the bubble.

Well, the judge that noted the finding was one who gave the beer a 40/50 and was not certified, whereas two other certified judges gave 47 and 48/50. He did not note as to whether he was referring to bubbles in the head or the beer - i would assume head, since i've never heard anybody care about the bubbles in beer. Essentially you can see where i'm going with this - calling BS on this judge.

The recipe was a classic Rauchbier, so it had lagered for a good 9 weeks before the keg saw gas. I then carbed at 12psi, and at the time of bottling from the keg, it was on gas for no shorter than 3 weeks.

cactusgarrett said:

Well, the judge that noted the finding was one who gave the beer a 40/50 and was not certified, whereas two other certified judges gave 47 and 48/50. He did not note as to whether he was referring to bubbles in the head or the beer - i would assume head, since i've never heard anybody care about the bubbles in beer. Essentially you can see where i'm going with this - calling BS on this judge.

The recipe was a classic Rauchbier, so it had lagered for a good 9 weeks before the keg saw gas. I then carbed at 12psi, and at the time of bottling from the keg, it was on gas for no shorter than 3 weeks.

Click to expand...

It sounds to me like he looking for something to ding you on, especially if the certified judges were more uniform in their scores.

@KevinM, those are some GREAT links. Thanks for the research! Very interesting.

cactusgarrett said:

Well, the judge that noted the finding was one who gave the beer a 40/50 and was not certified, whereas two other certified judges gave 47 and 48/50. He did not note as to whether he was referring to bubbles in the head or the beer - i would assume head, since i've never heard anybody care about the bubbles in beer. Essentially you can see where i'm going with this - calling BS on this judge.

The recipe was a classic Rauchbier, so it had lagered for a good 9 weeks before the keg saw gas. I then carbed at 12psi, and at the time of bottling from the keg, it was on gas for no shorter than 3 weeks.

Click to expand...

This actually sounds really sleazy to me now. It's pretty standard that judges are supposed to try and reach a general consensus about the score and when there's a large variation like that, discuss why the point spread is so wide and come to an agreement about what it should be. Considering this guy wasn't even certified, he really should be listening to the certified tasters about what they think the score should be and bring his score up accordingly. I'd be especially pissed since with a 47 and 48 you probably should have been in the running for best of show (if you weren't already). They won't change your scores post-event, but I would probably get in touch with the event organizers and let them know your experiences.

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