Bottle condition with No Sediment

mew · 12-03-2008, 09:42 PM

I give away a lot of beer to friends, but I hate the looks on some of their faces when I explain how to pour and leave the yeast sediment behind. For me, sediment is fine, but friends new to homebrew think it means that my beer is inherently different (worse) than commercial beer.

So I came up with this idea, which I'm sure has been done before but I haven't read about it anywhere. For us bottle conditioners, why not bottle condition with slightly more priming sugar in a 2-Liter pop bottle and after 3 weeks in the large bottle, put it in the fridge until chill haze is gone, and when it is time to bottle freeze the standard beer bottles and rack into them.

This method is an extra step, but it would be nice to have a six-pack of perfectly clear, sediment-free beers for gifts or competition, when the beer has to be as presentable as possible.

Anyone tried this? As far as I can tell, the biggest issue would be foaming during the second transfer.

**CBBaron** · 12-03-2008, 10:05 PM

Easier and better solution...

Educate your friends and family.

No one complains about sediment in my beer, but then most of the friends and family that drink some are interested in the process and have an appreciation for beer. Ofcourse it probably helps that I never make a blonde beer

As for your method, it should work for short term storage of your beer. The problem is the beer in your bottles will be exposed to additional oxygen from the transfer and rebottling. Oxygen absorbing caps may help some. Also you will have to work out some kind of fill mechanism that allows for a softer fill of the bottles. Pouring the beer into the bottles will cause an excessive amount of foam.

Craig

k1v1116 · 12-03-2008, 10:18 PM

champagne makers let their wine bottle condition then store the bottles upside down rotating them periodically until all the yeast is in the neck of the bottle then freeze the yeast plug in the neck of the bottle and pop the cork this blows out the yeast with a little bit of wine, the bottles are topped up with unfermented grape juice and left to carbonate a little more leaving sparkling clear carbonated wine.
not sure if this helps but its interesting and possibly adaptable to beer.

**944play** · 12-03-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1v1116

possibly adaptable to beer.

Definitely adaptable to beer if you have the patience:
Methode Champenoise for Beer - Maltose Falcons Home Brewing Society (Los Angeles Homebrewing)

carnevoodoo · 12-03-2008, 11:39 PM

I'd like to add that there are plenty of bottle conditioned commercial beers.

**Revvy** · 12-03-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBBaron

Easier and better solution...

Educate your friends and family.

No one complains about sediment in my beer, but then most of the friends and family that drink some are interested in the process and have an appreciation for beer. Of course it probably helps that I never make a blonde beer

Craig

Plus one on this!!!

Here's a rant I wrote on this subject, don't take it personal I'm not ranting at you....It just contains some info you might be able to use in your edumacation of your friends and family about "living beers."

Some homebrewers on here who make labels for the beers they give away usually have a note on it about living yeasts and pouring properly. IIRC, someone on here has a logo with a graphic on one of the side panels showing how to pour. If you are giving your beers away you might want to consider doing the same.

I wish I could recall who did it for the label.

Anyway here's the "rant." (like I said it was to someone else.)

Quote:

Drink bud....otherwise get used to it.

It's a fact of life when you make living beers. Unles you keg or force carb there needs to be living yeast in your beer to carb and conditiion.

Rather than try to avoid it you should relish in the fact that you have made REAL LIVING BEER as opposed to tasteless and processed commercial crap...It's not to be dreaded it's to be celebrated.

Learn to pour homebrew properly and get over it...

The Belgians practically worship it, for all it's healthful benefits...

Think of carbing/conditioning as another (but tiny) fermentation, in a small (12, 16, or 22 ounce) carboy. The yeast converts the sugar (priming solution) to a miniscule amount of alcohol (not really enough to change the abv of the beer) and CO2...The CO2 builds up in the headspace, is trapped and is reabsorbed in the solution...

Most of the time we don't notice this, (except for new brewers who stare at their bottles then start a "wtf" thread) but depending on the yeast, a mini krauzen forms on top of the bottle, then it falls, like in your fermenter and that becomes the "sludge" at the bottom of the bottles. As it falls it also scrubs the beer clean of many off flavors on the way down.

This is very similar to the trub at the bottom of your fermenter, only obvioulsy much much smaller.

Now some yeast are more flocculant then others, also depending on some brewing things one may do, some beers have very little noticeable yeast at the bottom, either because it just din't form that much OR it wasn't very flocculant and it is still in solution.

A long primary helps tighten the cake in primary, as does crash cooling...Racking to a secondary, adding finings and crash cooling all affect how much yeast is in suspension in the beer to help carb it...Also the type of yeast will change the amount of apparant yeast in the bottom, or in solution...

Also chilling the bottles down for at least a week after the 3 weeks @ 70 will help make the beer clearer and pull the yeast down to the bottom.

When I bottle I always run the autosiphon once across the bottom of the fermenter to make sure I DO kick up enough yeast for carbonation.

A lot of my beers have very little yeast at the bottom of the bottle, some appear to not have any at all, even though they seem to carb up fine.

also remember SOME beers, like Hefes are supposed to be cloudy with suspended yeasts.

For me personally, sometimes I intentionally dump the yeast in my glass, other times I do the "pour to the shoulder" method, where you watch the yeast mover up to the shoulder of the beer, and stop pouring just as the yeast is about to come out...

Now as opposed to the OP that thinks filtered dead beers are better than real beers, here's a pretty comrehensive list of all the commercial beers that are bottle conditioned...it's not too up to date though...but it is impressive...this is what a lot of us who ACTUALLY BOTTLE HARVEST THE GLORIOUS YEASTS from beers to capture the strains, use as a rough reference...

Yeasts from Bottle Conditioned Beers

Now if you look at this list, and then compare it to the "clear beers" (meaning BMC) you will quickly see that the kind of beer the OP is referring to is actually in the minority..

Hope this helps you be a better beer advocate!!!

**DeathBrewer** · 12-04-2008, 12:11 AM

leave them in the fridge for a couple of months. all that crap will get stuck to the bottom so hard, there's no way it'll pour out unless they shake the **** out of it. it'll be more clear, too

or you could start bottling from the keg after filtering. bring out your keg of beer, transfer through a wine filter (plate filter) to another keg, and counter-pressure fill into the bottle. brilliant clarity and no sediment!

**EvilTOJ** · 12-04-2008, 08:32 AM

I leave my beers in the primary at least a month, and rack into the bottling bucket without disturbing it. When I prime there's such a thin layer of yeast at the bottom of the bottle that it's barely noticeable.

Danek · 12-04-2008, 11:22 AM

I had an idea about this, based on the rubbish wheat beer dry yeast that Safale brought out (it was WB-06 -thanks Chris). I made a wheat beer with it, and there was almost no yeast character to the beer at all - no cloves, no spice, no banana, no nothing. The only positive was that the yeast was drinkable, and didn't taste foul like the yeasty dregs of other beers. So I had the idea of using that yeast at a low temp for a non-wheat beer (say, an American Pale Ale). I would hope that it wouldn't taste much different to using US-05, but as you could drink the yeast, there'd be no need to worry about inept pourers. I've not tried it yet, but if it worked it'd make hosting the beer-ignorant much easier.

FWIW I completely agree that educating people about bottle conditioned beers is a good thing, and have no qualms about doing that to my friends. But on the other hand, if a friend of a friend (or someone I didn't know but wanted to welcome to my house as a guest) came round, and the first conversation we had was me lecturing them on how to drink a beer, I would feel a bit of an uptight wanker. And much as I know that bottle-conditioned beer kicks ass, I'd still much rather not have to stand by the fridge checking that everyone was capable of operating a bottle of beer safely.

**Revvy** · 12-04-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danek

FWIW I completely agree that educating people about bottle conditioned beers is a good thing, and have no qualms about doing that to my friends. But on the other hand, if a friend of a friend (or someone I didn't know but wanted to welcome to my house as a guest) came round, and the first conversation we had was me lecturing them on how to drink a beer, I would feel a bit of an uptight wanker. And much as I know that bottle-conditioned beer kicks ass, I'd still much rather not have to stand by the fridge checking that everyone was capable of operating a bottle of beer safely.

Who said you have to be an "uptight wanker" to educate?

I present to you;

Quote:

Yeastie Boyz

A one act play by Revvy

Cast
HB) = Homebrewer
G) = Guest.

Scene, a living room, G and HB are hanging out watching the game.

HB) Hey you wanna try one of my beers?

G) Sure

HB grabs bottle, glass and bottle opener. Proceeds to open and pour beer properly.

HB) I dunno if you know this, but as opposed to BMC's this beer and most micro brews are alive?

G)Huh? Wha?

HB) They're still alive. See the macroswill makers pretty much kill their beers so they last on the shelf. They pasturize them and filter out the yeast, and to me, most of the flavor...that's why I like to brew, and like to go to brewpubs and stuff.

But these beers, and ones like Rogue, and Bell's don't filter, in fact the yeast is still in the bottle and that's how the beer gets carbonated.

B) Really?

HB holds up bottle to the light, showing the dregs.

HB) Yeah, see this stuff at the bottom? That's the yeast....notice how clear your beer is? If I had poured it in you beer it would have been cloudy, but I poured the beer til this stuff got to the shoulder of the bottle, leaving it behind.

HB knocks back the yeast dregs.

Actually the stuffs really good for you it's full of vitamin b and stuff. Sometimes I don't bother leaving it behind and just dump it in the bottle. And some beers like Wheats are meant to be cloudy with suspended yeast. There's different types of beer yeasts, and they give beers different tastes. Some yeast give the beer the flavor of Banana, or cloves.

Or like this beer here the yeast gives it this quality (Hb describes the yeast in the beer guest is drinking.) Can you taste it?

Some of us homebrewers actually capture the yeast from some of the beers, and grow our own cultures with them. Some are really awesome and hard to get.

G)Wow, I didn't know you knew so much about this stuff...cool.

HB) Thanks, didja know that the yeasts are so important to the Belgian brewers that guard their yeast like it was fort knox? Some of them take it so seriously that they actually filter out the strain they fermented with, and then replace it with a different one to bottle carb and condition them?

G) What?

HB) Yeah and brewers and even some homebrewers who go to Belgian, actually try to steal samples of the yeast.

G) No ****?

HB) Yeah it's pretty wild, huh? Hey you wanna try another of my beers, maybe a wheat or a belgian that has a really yeasty character?

G) Yeah sure.

HB hands G a bottle, class and bottle openner

HB)Ok dude, I showed you how to pour to the shoulder of the bottle, so why don't you give it a try?

G) Cool! So will you teach me how to brew sometime?

HB) Yeah, I'm brewing this weekend, come on by Sat. Morning.
Smiles knowing he's converted another one to the 'darkside.'

G) SO can I make a beer like bud lite?

HB smacks G over the head with beer bottle

The End

(Just kidding about the last part)

So, what's wankery about that?

12-03-2008, 09:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
mew Senior Member Recipes Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 713	Bottle condition with No Sediment I give away a lot of beer to friends, but I hate the looks on some of their faces when I explain how to pour and leave the yeast sediment behind. For me, sediment is fine, but friends new to homebrew think it means that my beer is inherently different (worse) than commercial beer. So I came up with this idea, which I'm sure has been done before but I haven't read about it anywhere. For us bottle conditioners, why not bottle condition with slightly more priming sugar in a 2-Liter pop bottle and after 3 weeks in the large bottle, put it in the fridge until chill haze is gone, and when it is time to bottle freeze the standard beer bottles and rack into them. This method is an extra step, but it would be nice to have a six-pack of perfectly clear, sediment-free beers for gifts or competition, when the beer has to be as presentable as possible. Anyone tried this? As far as I can tell, the biggest issue would be foaming during the second transfer.

12-03-2008, 10:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
CBBaron Senior Member Recipes Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cleveland Posts: 2,209 CBBaron's Gallery	Easier and better solution... Educate your friends and family. No one complains about sediment in my beer, but then most of the friends and family that drink some are interested in the process and have an appreciation for beer. Ofcourse it probably helps that I never make a blonde beer As for your method, it should work for short term storage of your beer. The problem is the beer in your bottles will be exposed to additional oxygen from the transfer and rebottling. Oxygen absorbing caps may help some. Also you will have to work out some kind of fill mechanism that allows for a softer fill of the bottles. Pouring the beer into the bottles will cause an excessive amount of foam. Craig __________________ Primary - Strong Bitter, Flanders Red, Sweet Mead, Dry Mead Secondary - Cyser, Pumpkin Pie Mead, 09-09-09 Barleywine, Black Raspberry Mead Conditioning - Blueberry cyser, Cran Cyser, traditional mead Drinking - Roggenbier, Oatmeal Stout, Mild, Chinook IPA, Fresh Hop IPA, Pinot Noir Pymet, Grape Braggot Up Next - IPA or maybe a Stout???

12-04-2008, 12:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
DeathBrewer BEER HAS EVERYTHING??? Recipes Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 8,931 DeathBrewer's Gallery	leave them in the fridge for a couple of months. all that crap will get stuck to the bottom so hard, there's no way it'll pour out unless they shake the ** out of it. it'll be more clear, too or you could start bottling from the keg after filtering. bring out your keg of beer, transfer through a wine filter (plate filter) to another keg, and counter-pressure fill into the bottle. brilliant clarity and no sediment! __________________ Fermenting/Conditioning: Hefeweizen, Peasant Ale, Blood Ale, RIS 08/08/08 (v2), Belgian Dark Strong Ale, Irish Red Ale, ESB Bottled (aging): RIS 08/08/08 (og), Belgian Dubbel Drinking: Dunkelweizen, Steam Engine Ale, Light American Wheat BJCP Brew-all Primary: American Wheat, American Rye, Northern German Altbier Secondary: Cream Ale, Blonde Ale, Kölsch Easy Partial Mash Brewing - Stovetop All-Grain Brewing** "Death is always with us." - Brewpastor

12-04-2008, 08:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
EvilTOJ Imma chargin mah lazerz Recipes Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 4,668 EvilTOJ's Gallery	I leave my beers in the primary at least a month, and rack into the bottling bucket without disturbing it. When I prime there's such a thin layer of yeast at the bottom of the bottle that it's barely noticeable. __________________ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

12-04-2008, 11:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
Danek Senior Member Recipes Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 1,035	I had an idea about this, based on the rubbish wheat beer dry yeast that Safale brought out (it was WB-06 -thanks Chris). I made a wheat beer with it, and there was almost no yeast character to the beer at all - no cloves, no spice, no banana, no nothing. The only positive was that the yeast was drinkable, and didn't taste foul like the yeasty dregs of other beers. So I had the idea of using that yeast at a low temp for a non-wheat beer (say, an American Pale Ale). I would hope that it wouldn't taste much different to using US-05, but as you could drink the yeast, there'd be no need to worry about inept pourers. I've not tried it yet, but if it worked it'd make hosting the beer-ignorant much easier. FWIW I completely agree that educating people about bottle conditioned beers is a good thing, and have no qualms about doing that to my friends. But on the other hand, if a friend of a friend (or someone I didn't know but wanted to welcome to my house as a guest) came round, and the first conversation we had was me lecturing them on how to drink a beer, I would feel a bit of an uptight wanker. And much as I know that bottle-conditioned beer kicks ass, I'd still much rather not have to stand by the fridge checking that everyone was capable of operating a bottle of beer safely. __________________ Secondary: Belgian Strong Dark Ale Next up: Big Ass Chocolate Stout Last edited by Danek : 12-04-2008 at 10:36 PM.

12-03-2008, 10:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
k1v1116 Senior Member Recipes Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 757	champagne makers let their wine bottle condition then store the bottles upside down rotating them periodically until all the yeast is in the neck of the bottle then freeze the yeast plug in the neck of the bottle and pop the cork this blows out the yeast with a little bit of wine, the bottles are topped up with unfermented grape juice and left to carbonate a little more leaving sparkling clear carbonated wine. not sure if this helps but its interesting and possibly adaptable to beer.

12-03-2008, 11:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
carnevoodoo Senior Member Recipes Join Date: May 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,533	I'd like to add that there are plenty of bottle conditioned commercial beers.

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