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Old 06-29-2011, 10:33 AM   #11
emjay
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Originally Posted by stageseven
The main purposes for the boil are to drive off DMS, promote hop utilization, sterilize the wort, and cause Maillard reactions
Not entirely correct. Driving off DMS is not a "purpose" of the boil at all, not even a minor one (it CAN'T be), even though it provides a reason to boil for longer. SMM conversion to DMS actually happens DURING the boil, and boiling for 90 minutes helps ensure all the SMM has been converted, and all the subsequent DMS driven off. If you skip the boil altogether for whatever reason, DMS really shouldn't be a problem even if you use pilsner malt, whereas a 30 minute boil is very likely to have a significant amount of it.
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:19 PM   #12
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Not entirely correct. Driving off DMS is not a "purpose" of the boil at all, not even a minor one (it CAN'T be), even though it provides a reason to boil for longer. SMM conversion to DMS actually happens DURING the boil, and boiling for 90 minutes helps ensure all the SMM has been converted, and all the subsequent DMS driven off. If you skip the boil altogether for whatever reason, DMS really shouldn't be a problem even if you use pilsner malt, whereas a 30 minute boil is very likely to have a significant amount of it.
Purpose (n) : The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists

You're getting into semantics here and while correct in theory on DMS production, from a practical standpoint I would disagree. If you skip the boil in an all-grain batch for whatever reason, you're going to have a very difficult time with making actual beer instead of a lacto-laden mess with no hops. Since you know you HAVE to boil to get the results you want, and you know you are going to create DMS during the boil, you also have to boil for a proper amount of time, making the reduction of DMS a function of the boil.

It's not a secondary function at all in this aspect, in fact I'd say it's the main purpose in a homebrew setting for the length of the standard boil with hop utilization being more of an afterthought. One could easily just have a slightly larger hop addition for 45 minutes and still get pretty much just bitterness from the addition, but with a 40 minute half-life, you need at least the 60 (or 90 with pilsner malt) minute boil to reduce DMS to around or below taste threshold levels. The minimum 60 minute boil needed to drive off DMS just happens to also give us better hop utilization and slightly lowers batch cost. Obviously in a commercial setting the bottom line is key, so they have even stronger motivations for the longer boil, but that doesn't apply so much to us.
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:37 PM   #13
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Hhmmmm

Ok so I use an immersion chiller, with a whirlpool and a prechilled (just an immersion chiller submerged in water/ice/salt) so I shouldn't have a problem making a nasty corn salsa or what ever you called it lol

I always do a minimum 90 minute boil, so I can boil for 30 minutes....take reading on my volume and adjust from there. Either turn down if I'm going too fast or up and wait too add the first hop edition.

This has been very informative! I've always done big, rich malty ales so I just let the boil rip and didn't care. This light, crisp beer is new to me. I'm excited now!

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Old 06-29-2011, 01:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stageseven

You're getting into semantics here and while correct in theory, from a practical standpoint I would disagree. If you skip the boil for whatever reason, you're going to have a very difficult time with making actual beer instead of a lacto-laden mess with no hops. Since you know you HAVE to boil to get the results you want, and you know you are going to create DMS during the boil, you also have to boil for a proper amount of time, making the reduction of DMS a function of the boil.
That's not what you said. And it's not as if people NEVER intend to brew a lacto beer. Although, the whole reasoning behind even bringing that up is totally fallacious as it has nothing to do with DMS and everything to do with an ACTUAL purpose of boiling - hop utilization and isomerization.

I apologize if you don't like being called out on being wrong, but pedantry wasn't the point. Even minor stuff like that is how misinformation spreads (just look at the unbelievably widespread notion that flocculation means yeast falling out of suspension). Somewhere down the line, somebody may consider doing a no-boil Berliner Weisse, and might decide against it solely for fear of DMS, or somebody who read this thread and absorbed that information might put that fear in them, or maybe say something about it in another thread to someone who then does it.

Point is, there's no reason to let an error of fact go unchecked on an educational forum. Or, let's imagine that you're not just getting defensive and really said that with full awareness of the facts, and that all this really is nothing more than a poor choice of using the word "purpose". Even if that actually HAD been the case, your wording was obviously unclear enough to make at least one person understand it to imply something else, and so would very likely be similarly misunderstood by at least SOME others as well. And if they're unaware of the facts, the issue of "semantics" has the same potential for misinformation as the actual error of fact, and thus requires the same clarification anyway.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:34 PM   #15
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I boil the living piss out of all my beers, never had a darkening effect. This is a 3 srm CAP. This is after a short 2 week primary and only one week of lagering, crystal clear and very light colored.


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Old 06-29-2011, 03:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emjay View Post
That's not what you said. And it's not as if people NEVER intend to brew a lacto beer. Although, the whole reasoning behind even bringing that up is totally fallacious as it has nothing to do with DMS and everything to do with an ACTUAL purpose of boiling - hop utilization and isomerization.

I apologize if you don't like being called out on being wrong, but pedantry wasn't the point. Even minor stuff like that is how misinformation spreads (just look at the unbelievably widespread notion that flocculation means yeast falling out of suspension). Somewhere down the line, somebody may consider doing a no-boil Berliner Weisse, and might decide against it solely for fear of DMS, or somebody who read this thread and absorbed that information might put that fear in them, or maybe say something about it in another thread to someone who then does it.

Point is, there's no reason to let an error of fact go unchecked on an educational forum. Or, let's imagine that you're not just getting defensive and really said that with full awareness of the facts, and that all this really is nothing more than a poor choice of using the word "purpose". Even if that actually HAD been the case, your wording was obviously unclear enough to make at least one person understand it to imply something else, and so would very likely be similarly misunderstood by at least SOME others as well. And if they're unaware of the facts, the issue of "semantics" has the same potential for misinformation as the actual error of fact, and thus requires the same clarification anyway.
Woah, slow down there man. There's an awful lot of hypothetical situations and presuppositions going on in your post. My choice of the word "purpose" is based solely on its dictionary definition, and used exactly for my intended effect. As I posted above, this definition is "The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists". In this case, because in practical brewing situations (and as a direct answer to the OP) almost every recipe that exists will require a boil, one of the reasons that the boil must be done for an appropriate amount of time and to a particular level of intensity is for the reason (i.e. purpose) of driving off DMS.

Your initial post was enough to clear up for any ambiguity that may have been read into mine. My reply was for the purpose of pointing out the major detail you left out of your reply - that skipping the boil will cause a lacto infection whether intended or not. Now it's getting entirely pedantic, so I'm done. As heard so many times on this forum, RDWHAHB.
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