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Old 12-31-2011, 05:35 AM   #11
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AirborneGuy:

I'm really astounded that you naturally chill in the kettle. That's cool!

I'm not trying to come across as illuminating the world with BIAB, No Chill, Stovetop Mashing, etc. How do you think I learned about it? The forums of course! I found out about using paint strainer bags, here, too. But still, it seems not many people are aware of it.

I am sure that I have read that hops are more highly utilized in lower gravities, making water the best thing for that purpose. BYO and even on this forum, I'm pretty sure I've read that. Part of the point of this post is to challenge conventional wisdom. Maybe there's a better way? When I don't boil separately, my beers haven't been as bitter. Why don't you try it?

As far as the 15 degree swing in mash temp, the range was from 145-160, still within normal mash temps. My point is that you don't need to hold it steady, that's my experience. Most of the time my temps vary from 148-156. If you read most any "how to" website or book you will see that I would have screwed up, for sure. But all's well in the end!

I've used a third less hops before than required utilizing my hop method, and had an IPA that I was worried about being too bitter, but it ultimately was the best IPA I've ever had. Maybe if the IBU's were actually measured with sophisticated equipment, then my brews wouldn't show as many IBU's, but the taste perception would be close to the same. How do I know? I've had plenty of commercial IPA's. My very first IPA tasted a little better than Longhammer, a very good IPA.

Indeed, the vegetal smell is probably from a short boil time, although it happens with extract, too. One third less boil time is worth it! All's well in the end, though. That is good info to know that you haven't had that smell. Does yours smell the same as if you quick chilled it?

No I don't drink Ultra, but it's not bad.

Of course what I'm posting is subjective. These are my experiences I hope will make it easier for others. Also save money, time resources and get out of the 5 gallon paradigm. Not everyone wants to brew big. The great majority of homebrewers brew 5 gallon batches, wouldn't you agree? Nothing wrong with that, BTW.

I like plastic fermenters, but anyone knows there's more chance for infections than glass or stainless. Just have to be more careful.

I skim the foam off just cause. Not suggesting that's alternative!

A lot of people would like a shorter, easier brew day when it comes to AG. I'm presenting some valid shortcuts. I enjoy brewing, too, but not if it is in the traditional time frame. I think a lot of processes are overdone. Just relax and make it simple, if the end result is acceptable.

I have and never will brew traditionally. That's kinda the point of this post, too. You better be sure that I've tasted plenty of traditionally brewed beer, and mine doesn't taste different in any bad way.

I assure you the process I have for grinding grain and sanitizing bottles is not a time consumer. They're both quick and easy and save money, water, and time.

Maybe you're not keen on refractometers. Pretty accurate is fine with me. I've not had any issues. Much quicker to use and versatile, one drop or two all that is needed, can use on boiling wort.

Why are you questioning the clarity of by beer? As I stated, no chill haze. Is my beer as clear as it could be? NO! But it's clear, and realize that my beer is not filtered and is bottle conditioned, and most of my beer isn't around past 6 weeks or so.

OK, you presented two things that I'm curious about; Your no boil All Grain that you and "many" others have performed. I have been interested in trying this. Can you expound on this? I haven't been able to find many threads on reduced time or no boil AG. Something tells me though, that it's probably better to boil at least ten minutes or more, just to get things meshed together.

Secondly, do you routinely "no chill in the kettle?" I would like to hear your opinions on that. Maybe you're doing something a little different than I am. I sometimes don't even bother with the plastic wrap.

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Old 12-31-2011, 05:41 AM   #12
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Arkowa:

Funny, I never expected anyone to say that not so alternative after all!

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Old 12-31-2011, 05:48 AM   #13
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Calder:

Sorry I wasted your time. Also sorry that you wasted time by posting. Try this: take some hops and boil them for 3 minutes in a pint of water. Then taste it after it cools. Man, that stuff is super bitter. Now boil the same amount of hops in the same gravity wort that you normally brew, also just one pint for 3 minutes.

Which one is more bitter? Nuff said...

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Old 12-31-2011, 05:52 AM   #14
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Ramitt:

I never claimed that this was revolutionary. You have to admit this is not the norm. I have siphoned and used bottling buckets and wands plenty. I just thought that so many people think that if beer is poured instead of siphoned, that the beer would be ruined. Actually, some of best brews have been when I poured! Go figure!

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Old 12-31-2011, 06:00 AM   #15
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Here's my thoughts on oxidation: I believe it is real as far as storage time goes, of course. But I am skeptical as to whether say, up to 6 months will make any difference after bottling. I've been meaning to save some bottles, but I just don't remember to.

Other things that have already been challenged are HSA, Chill Haze from slow cooling, DMS from short boils in the final product, shorter mash times, etc. Just think, if nobody ever challenged anything, where we would be today?

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Old 12-31-2011, 06:00 AM   #16
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acidrain23:

Thank you for your post! I want to find out just how many more people are avoiding the "oxidation fairy" when they bottle.

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Old 12-31-2011, 06:19 AM   #17
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One more thing. Could we please keep this civilized? Calling my methods "garbage" and bull and BS isn't very polite. It's downright insulting!

Anyone is welcome to post, but I want a constructive discussion. I expected plenty of disagreement, but the offensive posts are not helpful.

You may think I'm nuts, but if you really read the entire original post, you can see that this has worked for 2 years, now.

So chill out all, let's have some friendly discussion, please! I'm here to learn as well as share my brewing experiences.

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Old 12-31-2011, 01:27 PM   #18
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My "issue", so to speak, is that a few of the attributes you are describing are highly subjective to personal preference and palate. I don't think you are getting chill haze from not cooling fast enough (actually, I don't recall that as a reason for chill haze), but I am 100% convinced you have hazy beers because of your extremely short boils. I can barely shine a flashlight through my no-boil beer that only used pilsner and wheat, but I've made porters with black malt that I can discern objects through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
I'm really astounded that you naturally chill in the kettle. That's cool!
Sometimes I do it in the kettle, sometimes in the fermentor. I find that it actually takes longer to chill if I leave it in the kettle. I started out leaving it in the kettle, but transfer to a fermentor now.

[quote=AlterBrewer;3614878] I am sure that I have read that hops are more highly utilized in lower gravities, making water the best thing for that purpose. BYO and even on this forum, I'm pretty sure I've read that. Part of the point of this post is to challenge conventional wisdom. Maybe there's a better way? When I don't boil separately, my beers haven't been as bitter. Why don't you try it?[quote]

I won't try it because I've read about this it in many brewing books and never seen any writer disagree with the fact that this isn't effective. Furthermore, if tis provided higher yield, commercial brewers would do it to cuts costs.

You are "tasting" (again, highly subjective) increased bitterness because there is nothing else in the solution to perceive. Not to mention, why would you do this anyway? Even if you did actually get a tiny bit of extra yield, you wouldn't save more than $1 on the batch size you are making. Seems kind of pointless to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
As far as the 15 degree swing in mash temp, the range was from 145-160, still within normal mash temps.
When you said 15º swings, you didn't describe what you meant well. A 15º swing is how I described it when I responded to your original post. A 5º swing is what you are describing now, which is what I called perfectly acceptable in the very next quote down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
I've used a third less hops before than required utilizing my hop method, and had an IPA that I was worried about being too bitter, but it ultimately was the best IPA I've ever had. Maybe if the IBU's were actually measured with sophisticated equipment, then my brews wouldn't show as many IBU's, but the taste perception would be close to the same. How do I know? I've had plenty of commercial IPA's. My very first IPA tasted a little better than Longhammer, a very good IPA.
Again, too subjective. I've been handed some pretty bad beers by homebrewers who raved about them seconds before. Seeing is believing, no offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
Does yours smell the same as if you quick chilled it?
I've never noticed a difference in smell between the two methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
Also save money, time resources and get out of the 5 gallon paradigm. Not everyone wants to brew big. The great majority of homebrewers brew 5 gallon batches, wouldn't you agree?
This really isn't an issue anymore. Plenty of people brew different sized batches. I track my recipes using brewing software and can scale my batches up or down in seconds. I personally stick with 5.5 gallons batches because of my equipment. I also don't want to go through a batch in one weekend. I like to have a beer around for a few weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
That's kinda the point of this post, too. You better be sure that I've tasted plenty of traditionally brewed beer, and mine doesn't taste different in any bad way.
See here's where the subjectiveness shines. What does "in any bad way" mean? You're pretty much admitting here that your beers taste different. Different how?

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I assure you the process I have for grinding grain and sanitizing bottles is not a time consumer. They're both quick and easy and save money, water, and time.
Impossible. If I had to squirt StarSan into each bottle and swirl it around, I would quit brewing. My bottle sanitizing method takes me as long as it takes to dump 50 bottles into a big plastic tub, maybe 30-40 seconds at most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
Why are you questioning the clarity of by beer? As I stated, no chill haze.
Because you saying "No chill haze" is not enough when I've read and experienced plenty of information that points to short boils leading to beers that won't clear due to less protein coagulation. I'm not accusing you have having chill haze. Chill haze changes through the temperature range of your beer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
Is my beer as clear as it could be? NO!
...and then you "cleared" that up for me anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer View Post
OK, you presented two things that I'm curious about; Your no boil All Grain that you and "many" others have performed. I have been interested in trying this. Can you expound on this?
It's traditional for some wheat beers. I used it on a Berliner Weisse. Some people use it on Wit beers. When I did it, I decocted a small amount of the wort with the hops to get some hop utilization, but did not boil the wort once it was run-off.
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:25 PM   #19
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Revvy you are no longer needed please hand the Yoda avatar over to alterbrewer he is the new Jedi teacher he is.
Nah, I think I'll keep it. Methinks he needs to read some of our info. Then he wouldn't think things like no-chill is revolutionary.

And had he read our stuff he might have considered a vinator to sanitize his bottles, lot simpler and quicker than his method.



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Old 12-31-2011, 02:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterBrewer
Calder:

Sorry I wasted your time. Also sorry that you wasted time by posting. Try this: take some hops and boil them for 3 minutes in a pint of water. Then taste it after it cools. Man, that stuff is super bitter. Now boil the same amount of hops in the same gravity wort that you normally brew, also just one pint for 3 minutes.

Which one is more bitter? Nuff said...
Well of course it is more bitter in just water, there is no sugar present to work against the bitter... The main purpose of hops is to balance out the sugars in a beer, they work together in the recipe.

But I will challenge your logic on this. Try boiling some hops in a pint of water, add that to a pint of your wort and taste it. Now boil some hops in a pint of wort, add a pint of water to dilute the two to the same gravity. Taste the two side by side, I would bet that there is no perceivable difference.

If you are boiling the hops in plain water, yes the utilization is higher in that small concentration of water. But that doesn't mean that it will increase the utilization into the wort. You are still adding the same amount of IBU's into solution in your wort, you have to look at the bigger picture, not just the small amount of water/hop solution.
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