AG vs. Extract - ?What's the Difference?

Hey! Hey! Hey!


I am a newbie around here and have brewed & bottled our first Bock Munton's Kit. We bottled on the Fourth of July! :rockin: GO AMERICA!! :rockin: Now we are waiting & enjoying before our first home-brew!!

Well... So, after a couple of weeks while fermenting & now wanting to move on to my next beer, i am stumped to as what to do! I want to try an AG but i don't actually have the equipment right now to do the AG.. i don't know much about extract beers - currently reading up on them in John Palmer's book & online.. But since I don't have the equipment for an AG yet... Not knowing if my LHBS can grind my grains & such... Would an extract kit (do they make those)? be better for me to work with an extract next or to try to do the AG?

Wanted to throw in a pic of the Bock Beer we brewed.....



We fermented the beer in the carboy in a temp. controlled fridge for 15 days & I think it's gonna be pretty tasty!

it's sitting in bottles now... Gonna give an update after our tasting party with our friends... Let you guys know how it is...

As for now, decisions... decisions... decisions... Excited!! Thirsty!



Peace. Love. & Beer!
CHEERS!!

Preference. That is all.

I see, the Munton's was pre-hopped syrup. Like a Cooper's kit. If I might give you my $.02, I would suggest visiting your LHBS and picking up an extract plus grains kit, like those made by Brewer's Best. Doing another kit beer will help to demystify some of the "Witch's cauldron"-ism from your brew day. In the meantime, do some reading on an all grain method referred to as "Brew in a bag." You won't have to buy much equipment in order to use that method. Cheers! (I would say welcome, but for a newbie you have quite a few posts under your belt!)

Wow- lots of icons and smiley faces there. I think I read through most of it, anyway!

All grain isn't hard, but it does require a firm basic understanding of the processes as well as some extra equipment. A boil pot that can hold at least 6.5 gallons (at least 8 gallons in size), a good thermometer, etc. There is a great picture how-to in the online book howtobrew.com that shows the entire process, and in simple terms. I also like dennybrew.com- he shows everything in pictures and uses proper but simple terms to explain each part from the equipment to the process.

An extract kit (not cooper's or munton's or John bull prehopped "add sugar and water and stir" canned "kits") from a place like austinhomebrew.com would probably the a great next step from the Munton's extract kit. They have steeping grains, fresh extract, and hops, along with excellent step-by-step instructions and their kits come in every possible style you can think of. They have hundreds and hundreds of "clone kits" so if you feel like doing a Pete's Wicked Ale clone (that was one of my firsts) you can. The only thing I'd suggest is to stay away from lagers for the first few kits, and brew any ale that comes in an extract kit.

Once you get a firm understanding of the process and get a confidence in each step, then partial mashing and/or all grain brewing would be a great way to grow as a brewer. Many people I know choose to never do all-grain and instead are very pleased with extract brewing. They may start to formulate their own recipes and crush their own grains and make excellent beer, just by using extract as the base. So it's not that all-grain brewing is advanced while extract brewing is basic- since some award winning beers are brewed with extract. It's just about each brewer's priorities. Sometimes a 5-8 hour brewday can be long, but I always enjoy it anyway.

The simple answer is that all grain requires you to crack (mill) the grains and steep them in a measured amount of water, at a precise temperature for a precise amount of time in order to activate enzymes present in the grains which will convert the starches in the grains into sugars that the yeast can convert into alcohol and CO2. With extract, the maltster does all that work and then dehydrates it into either a liquid malt syrup or a dry malt powder. All grain offers the most control over the process, but also has the most room for mistakes. It also requires some additional equipment from extract . Extract is much easier, but lacks the ability to have fine control over the end product. You can use specialty grains (grains that have been roasted to some degree and have had their starches already converted to sugars and caramelized) to enhance the flavor and color profile of an extract brew. Either way can make good beer or bad beer, as it all depends on the brewer.

Yeah... i am thinking about doing a couple of extract brews before getting into too deep... I have watched a couple of videos on the AG process - thanks to some help here on HBT!! It seems as if I can do the process, but I don't have all of the equipment to handle to grains & hops yet... Soon... So, I have a brew pot that can hold 5 gallons... & I am anxious to start my next brew!! I think the first Munton's was a good "first" kit... Just want to do something different & more into the brewing process...

Thanks!

+1 to what Yooper said, I think she hit on all the key points. I started with Mr. Beer and moved to AG with a bag, IMO do a few extract with steeping grains to get a feel of the process, like hop additions and a 60 min boil, after that jump in feet first.

Here's a great place to start: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/index.php?cPath=178_452_43&osCsid=ead2f250961b06851da624ad8919871d

The extract kits come complete, and you can do any of them in a small 5 gallon pot. That would be a good next step.

May I suggest BIAB (Brew in a Bag) Its a DIRT CHEAP way to start All Grain
See if you like it, and the time it takes

The cost is $10-$20 for a bag or two, and some 5 gallon pots.
Plus a digital thermometer.
A refractometer is a nice to have, but if you wasnt to see what AG is like, you can hold off the first time

Not to Hijack the thread, but how are the Austin Home Brewing Stone IPA and Pale Ale clones?


I have been VERY disappointed with the IPAs from Northern Brewer and Midwest Supplies.
But I'll try the Austin Home Brew Stone Clones (IPA and Pale Ale)

ArcLight said:

Not to Hijack the thread, but how are the Austin Home Brewing Stone IPA and Pale Ale clones?

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I've only bought one kit from them (Stone IPA) and it came out very nice!

ArcLight said:

May I suggest BIAB (Brew in a Bag) Its a DIRT CHEAP way to start All Grain
See if you like it, and the time it takes

The cost is $10-$20 for a bag or two, and some 5 gallon pots.
Plus a digital thermometer.
A refractometer is a nice to have, but if you wasnt to see what AG is like, you can hold off the first time

Click to expand...

But with BIAB, don't I have to still grind my grains before putting them into the bag? I don't have a grinder yet.. If I don't have all of the equipment for an AG, I am thinking an extract kit might be my next go at brewing...



..... Told the hubby that I wanted to go to the LHBS.. He asks.. Want to go to the Deep Ellum Brewery & take a tour!!!?? ..... Sad thing, I am sick right now... In the middle of summer!! ... Sad but I think it might be a sinus infection... I want to be able to taste this beer! We were told from a friend of a friend that at The Deep Ellum Brewery gives you a mug at the beginning of the tour & fill it 3 times throughout the tour... Don't know if that is true... But I wanna go! If you ever get the chance to have a brewskie from The Deep Ellum Brewery, DRINK IT!!! Double Brown is Tasty!!

However, tonight.. We are going to The Led Zepplin Tribute Concert @ The House of Blues! Excited for that!! I guess it's to 24 oz. Miller Light Cans... It's Okay! I am excited!! Just ticked that I have this infection...

Any who... Totally off topic there..
Good Saturday!!

See if you can hook up with some all grain brewers in your area and see how they do it. Try to observe a range of different methods too. That will help you to make an informed decision as to which way to go.

No matter which choice you make now remember you can change later. You're not locked into just one method. Many of us evolve our systems over time to make them work better for US.

If you order a all grain kit you can have the grains crushed for ya from the supplier.

sonex said:

If you order a all grain kit you can have the grains crushed for ya from the supplier.

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Sweet..... I actually think that my LHBS does that kind of thing for me. Since I have only done one kit, I am kind of new to all what happens in the process. I am learning... :rockin: Thanks for the tip!!

Golddiggie said:

See if you can hook up with some all grain brewers in your area and see how they do it. Try to observe a range of different methods too. That will help you to make an informed decision as to which way to go.

No matter which choice you make now remember you can change later. You're not locked into just one method. Many of us evolve our systems over time to make them work better for US.

Click to expand...

That's a good idea! Actually, the reason why the hubby & i wanted to get into brewing is because some of our friends were brewing their own beer for a while.. She actually just told me that she & her husband actually did a Mead back in March & said it won't be ready until September sometime... I am totally interested in using different methods & making different & beverages to enjoy!! So... I am down for that!!

I did the kit that came with the brewers bucket kit ,then did an all malt kit and jumped to BIAB.
It's not much more equipment and I'd still be doing it if I hadn't wanted to step up to 10 gallon batches.
And yes your LHBS should mill grain that you buy there.But Walmart has a Corona style for $30 and they'll
ship it Fedex too a store of your choice for free.

Have fun and break some hydrometers

Okay.... so, the hubby & i went to our LHBS yesterday & got ourselves a recipe & the ingredients & bag to get this brew going!! Whoot! Whoot!

So.... because I am learning all of this... i thought I would share my recipe with you guys & see what you guys think..

Sugars:
Amount Type
8 lbs. Light Malt Extract
1 lb. Light Belgian Candi Sugar
3/4 cup Corn Sugar (priming)

Grains:
Amount Type
2 lb. Pilsner Malt
1/2 lb. Carmel-Pils Malt

Hops:
Amount Type
1 oz. German Tradition
1 oz. Fuggles (flavoring)
1/2 oz. Czech Saaz (finishing)

Yeast: 2- Safbrew T-58 Dry Brewing Yeast

Starting Gravity: 1.074
Ending Gravity: 1.016

Directions: Make any water adjustments first. It is best boil as much (up to 5 gallons) as your brew-pot will hold. Be careful not to overfill or cover your brew-pot when boiling, this will cause a boil over.

The use of a grain bag is highly recommended,. Place grains in grain bag, and put into 160 degree water. Cover, turn fire off, let steep for 30 minutes. Remove grain bag and bring water to a boil. Turn off the heat (to prevent scorching), and mix in the malt extracts and any other adjuncts. When fully dissolved, turn the heat back on and return the wort to a rolling boil. Add the bittering hops, continue to boil for 50 minutes. Add the flavoring hops, continue to boil for 5 minutes. Add the finishing hops and continue to boil for 5 more minutes. The use of hop socks makes the addition and removal of hops much easier.

After you have boiled your wort for a full 60 minutes, remove all hops and add water to reach 5 gallons. Cool to 75 degrees and add yeast. Shale your fermenter vigorously for 5 minutes to aerate the wort. Remember, your yeast needs oxygen to live and grow. Attach the blow-off hose to the fermenter and place the end into a container of water to form an air-lock. Rack into secondary fermenter after kreusen has begun to subside.


Yay! Excited! Moving on up from a canned brew kit!! Using some extracts & some grains & some hops!



We do have a question.... We have a two-stage fermenter... using a 5-gallon bucket for the primary & our 5-gallon glass carboy... How long should we leave this Belgian Triple in the primary before we move it into the secondary? It doesn't mention that in our recipe.

Thanks for any help, comments & answers!!


Peace. Love. & Beer!
Cheers!

doing a secondary is optional some brewers do them and others don't. I'm in the skip the secondary camp. The only good reason to do a secondary IMHO is if you want to add fruits or the style of beer requires a lengthy conditioning stage such as a lambic. By doing just a primary you take less chance of introducing infections, and the yeast on the bottom of the fermenter can help clean up off flavers after fermentation is complete.

sonex said:

doing a secondary is optional some brewers do them and others don't. I'm in the skip the secondary camp. The only good reason to do a secondary IMHO is if you want to add fruits or the style of beer requires a lengthy conditioning stage such as a lambic. By doing just a primary you take less chance of introducing infections, and the yeast on the bottom of the fermenter can help clean up off flavers after fermentation is complete.

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Okay.... then, when I bought my kit, and I got the glass carboy, what is the point? I ferment my beer in the primary - 5-gallon plastic bucket with an airlock... After the first week, or after fermentation has taken place, don't I move it to the carboy for the remaining time until bottling?

for doing a primary only fermentation, ferment to completion in your bucket. After ferment is complete which is two same hydrometer readings in a three day period, let the beer condition on the yeast cake for another 7-10 days to let the yeast clean up after itself and to let the beer clear. Then transfer to the bottling bucket with your priming sugar and bottle.

sonex said:

for doing a primary only fermentation, ferment to completion in your bucket. After ferment is complete which is two same hydrometer readings in a three day period, let the beer condition on the yeast cake for another 7-10 days to let the yeast clean up after itself and to let the beer clear. Then transfer to the bottling bucket with your priming sugar and bottle.

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After the ferment is complete, siphon it to the carboy & let it sit for the remaining period? Then siphon it back to the fermenter to bottle it?

ASassyBeerChick83 said:

After the ferment is complete, siphon it to the carboy & let it sit for the remaining period? Then siphon it back to the fermenter to bottle it?

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Leave it in primary UNTIL it's ready to bottle. Then transfer to the bottling bucket, on top of the priming solution, and bottle.

I'm new to this too, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but you're in the right place and smarter people than me will chime in later.

1. I'm not sure if a Belgian Tripel was the best choice for a first extract brew and/or possible with your set up. That seems like a lot of malt to me for the partial boil (meaning that since you need room for all the stuff you're going to put into a 5 gallon pot and room to leave to make it easier to avoid a boil over, so you need to use less than 5 gallons of water) that you're going to have to do. I would have recommended something simpler and smaller to start with. I've never brewed anything that big, but from reading on here its probably something a little trickier and more importantly something that's going to take a long time before its ready. My first non-kit brew was a simple wheat beer, best part about it is I was drinking it in about 4 weeks. And even that seemed like a really long time.

2. Do your OG and FG come from the recipe they gave you? Reason I ask is I plugged it into Hopville http://beercalculus.hopville.com/ , a free online app and get an OG of around 1.093. This means if you finish at your anticipated 1.016 you're looking at about a 10% alcohol brew. May be that's what you're looking for, but for me something like that leads to something like this

3. Your blowoff tube should probably go into santized water just to be safe. You can't overdo sanitization.

4. Do you have a hydrometer? That is how you should judge when to move from primary to secondary. Primary means just that, you want most of the fermentation to happen in the primary on the yeast cake. So you shouldn't be moving to a secondary until you're getting pretty close or at what you think your final gravity will be. Or some people on here (and I'm not qualified to comment) would tell you that you don't need a secondary at all.

My advice (and feel free to ignore it, this is your beer and you should do what you want), is stick with everything else you've got and just cut the Malt Extract in half. That's still and OG of 1.057, beer finishes at about 5.5%. That'd give you a nice drinkable beer, you can start enjoying it sooner and you have 4 lbs of extract still left over for beer #2.

You will see (already have seen...) that there are a few different ideas about using the carboy for "secondary" conditioning. SO, you can choose one of these options:

1) Brew, pour into 5 gal bucket, let ferment, then let it "condition" for X number of weeks in the same bucket, then rack to bottling bucket, then bottle (or keg)
2) Brew, pour into 5 gal bucket, let ferment, rack to carboy, let it "condition" in the carboy, then rack to bottling bucket, then bottle (or keg)

I am fairly new and have done both methods. I cannot seem to find a difference in the finished brew, so I wont be using the carboy unless I need to free up a bucket for a fresh brew!

Lot's of controversy about whether or not secondary is really necessary. First of all, secondary isn't really a secondary fermentation, it's really just a "bright tank" to help clear the beer, or used for dry-hopping or additions like fruit. I've tried both ways and it seems that the beers I use a secondary for are a little bit clearer, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble for most beers. I think a lot of people who don't use secondaries "cold crash" the primary, which helps clear the beer. Transferring to secondary does involve greater chance of infection and oxidation of the beer, but not a big risk if you are careful about sanitation and how you rack.

Golddiggie, I think you're missing something. There is no bottling bucket, there's a bucket and a carboy. I've started with the same setup Sassy.

You could use the carboy for primary and the bucket for bottling. Or start in the bucket and do the carboy as secondary (this is what I did for the first 4 brews). Or just the bucket as a primary and carefully add the priming sugar and try to stir/mix without distrurbing or introducing oxygen (what I did for my last brew). Or buy a bottling bucket (what I just did for my next brew).

Its a really fun hobby, but there's always something new to buy to "improve" your process. Go at your own pace, though, and don't feel the need to spend a pile of money until you're ready.

You guys needs to know.... We went with the Belgian Triple... Because we are badass... & I knew we totally could because we are chefs... & we have experience...

I will be starting a new thread shortly & see what you guys think! I will tell you... It smells amazing!!


Peace. Love. & Beer!
Cheers!

Wow, you've updated quite a few threads with the info of choosing a belgian triple. Love your entnusiasm, but be careful...carpel tunnel would make carrying a glass carboy dangerous

Hey!! Hey!! Hey!!

The hubby & I brewed our 2nd brew last night!!
You can check out an update under the Beginners Forum to check out more of my pics & steps!
But not to keep you waiting...
I think she looks pretty good!!



I guess we will know in a couple of months!
In the meantime, we have beer tasting & bottle collecting to take care of!!


Peace. Love. & Beer!
CHEERS!!