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-   -   30,20,15,10,5 minute hop additions - are they worth it? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/30-20-15-10-5-minute-hop-additions-they-worth-187060/)

permo 07-19-2010 06:37 PM

30,20,15,10,5 minute hop additions - are they worth it?
 
I am starting to wonder at actually how effective a use of hops is when they are added 30 to 5 minutes left in the boil. I have made numerous beers with 3-6 oz of hops in this time frame added and been pretty much dissapointed every time.

I am wondering, if you may just get more bang for you buck using the following hopping type of schedule.

Bittering at 90 to 45 minutes, then a big addition at flamout, and then dry hopping. My thinking is that in most homebrew systems the flameout addition is actually an extended warm steep, I take about 10-15 minutes to cool my beer down to pitching temps, so it isn't instant. As far as I am concerned from an arroma and flavor standpoint (yes, flavor...at least percieved) dry hopping is second to none. So I propose this hypothetical recipe for IPA.

12 pound two row
1 pound c60
1.5 to 2oz magnum at 60
1 oz centennial at FO
1 oz cascade at FO
1 oz Chinook at FO

1 oz centennial DH
1 oz cascade DH
1 oz chinook DH

I bet this beer would be super flavorfull and aromatic....

thoughts on this concept/idea?

Pivovar_Koucky 07-19-2010 06:58 PM

I definately get the aromas and flavors in that time frame. I just finished off an American IPA with 12 lbs of 2-row, 1 lb of victory and the following hop schedule:

60 min - 2 oz. Willamette
30 min - 1 oz. Willamette
15 min - 1 oz. Willamette
5 min - .5 oz. Willamette
1 min - .5 oz. Willamette

No question it worked for me. Now, is it as strong as tossing 3 oz. into dry hop? That I could not say.

permo 07-19-2010 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pivovar_Koucky (Post 2168710)
I definately get the aromas and flavors in that time frame. I just finished off an American IPA with 12 lbs of 2-row, 1 lb of victory and the following hop schedule:

60 min - 2 oz. Willamette
30 min - 1 oz. Willamette
15 min - 1 oz. Willamette
5 min - .5 oz. Willamette
1 min - .5 oz. Willamette

No question it worked for me. Now, is it as strong as tossing 3 oz. into dry hop? That I could not say.

I am not saying that you don't get any flavor or aroma, I am just wondering if it may be better to shift the 30,15 etc..etc.. additions to the flameout from that standpoint...just to try and maximize hop flavor and aroma.

PVH 07-19-2010 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by permo (Post 2168724)
I am not saying that you don't get any flavor or aroma, I am just wondering if it may be better to shift the 30,15 etc..etc.. additions to the flameout from that standpoint...just to try and maximize hop flavor and aroma.

Thing is, the "hop flavor and aroma" of which you speak are not static things that you simply extract from the hops. Try making a tea by steeping, and another by boiling for a few minutes. You'll end up with a different flavor in each, not just a more intense flavor in one. I'll leave it to the true beer geeks to explain the different oils and how they are isomerized in the wort.

babalu87 07-19-2010 07:14 PM

Yes....................

Bensiff 07-19-2010 07:15 PM

All hop additions are worth it...well, not from an economic stand point, but from a taste standpoint :).

There are a lot of ifs-ands-buts in that question. I have a suspicion in the back of my head that is completely untested that if you did what you propose it would make an awesome up front beer that would slowly turn into something with an obnoxious oiliness and a subtle background bitter. I see the additions in the 30 minute area as adding a slightly more stable flavor and aroma to bridge the gap between the rapid degredation of late hop additions and the much more stable and much less flavorful 60+ minute additions.

whatsleftofyou 07-19-2010 07:35 PM

Agreed with the above that it might be great at first, but a month or two down the road a beer like this would REALLY lose it. I did an experiment along the same lines of this where I ONLY did a 15 minute addition of hops. No 60 minute, flame-out, or dry hops. It calculated out to 70 IBU. After kegging it had this great flavor and aroma but definitely didn't seem to be 70 IBU, more like 35-40. My point is that these things may look great on paper but there is definitely a qualitative aspect at work as well. The only way you'll know for sure is if you brew it and find out for yourself.

permo 07-19-2010 07:38 PM

I can vouch personally for hops added to the boil adding a longer lasting aroma and flavor.

I have a IIPA that is nearing 4 months old, it has 100 + IBU, with 8 oz of 15-10-5-1 additions........still nice and hoppy, actually I think it is peaking...very nice beer.

remilard 07-19-2010 07:57 PM

I've done fairly well in competitions (low-mid 40s, several first places including an AHA regional) with IPA/IIPA that have been bittered with extract and only had after flameout and dry hop additions. The flameout hops sit for about 15-20 minutes before chilling starts (approximating a commercial whirlpool addition).

As soon as I can build or buy a sealed hopback I am going to experiment with recirculating hot through the hopback for 20 minutes before chilling which I believe will give the same effect with less hops.

My IIPA had two Norther Brewer Hop Shots for bittering, 6 ounces at flameout and I think around 6 ounces dry in two additions. This was for about 7 gallons post boil. It had a lot of hop flavor.

ReverseApacheMaster 07-20-2010 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvh99 (Post 2168754)
Thing is, the "hop flavor and aroma" of which you speak are not static things that you simply extract from the hops. Try making a tea by steeping, and another by boiling for a few minutes. You'll end up with a different flavor in each, not just a more intense flavor in one.

I agree. You're going to get a lot of contributions to the hop flavor/aroma/bitterness by using a lot of hops -- but the impact of the hops in terms of all three are different at each step. None are necessarily better than others; they contribute differently and add complexity to the flavor by making those step additions.

You can dryhop lots of hops and you'll get great aroma from it. Since you "taste" through both your nose and your mouth, you will perceive some of that aroma as flavor. However, it's not going to be as interesting and complex of a flavor as doing the dryhop and the 20, 15, or 10 minute additions. That said, you may enjoy the flavor of what that process gives you -- and that's really what matters.

The other issue you run into is that the later the addition -- especially after boiling -- the less stable the hop contribution, so it will fade over time. This may not be a problem if you intend on drinking your beer quickly, but if you plan on aging it, you definitely will lose some of your hop flavor and aroma as time goes on.


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