Well water and PH

I'm at the point in my homebrewing "career" where I'm starting to think about water and PH. I'm an AG brewer and the most I have ever done was add gypsum to my IPA's after speaking to a proffesional brewer and that helped a lot. I have well water and have never tested it, I know it is hard before it goes through my water softener. I also have iron I think because the water causes my tub to turn reddish after awhile. I have read that softened water is not good for brewing so I ran a seperate water line that bypasses the softener. I use a white whole house filter and a black carbon filter for it. This water feels noticeably harder to the touch and since I started using it I don't need to use any gypsum for IPA's. I know I should test the water and I'd like to have a test done for the softened water and the "hard" water line, but, I may be moving in a year so I would rather not pay for the testing if I don't have to. Lately I have been mostly brewing stout's, IPA's and pale ales and I feel like they are missing something. They don't have a malty taste and they don't have much mouthfeel when I compare them to commercial examples. They are good though but I want more. I don't really have the time to jump all in with water reports and spreadsheets and all that.
Of all the microbrewies I have been to only 1 admits to doing water adjustments. Can that be true?

I'm looking for the best or easiest option right now and I'm thinking I should start with a PH meter to see where my mash PH is.

I'm also curious what water I should be using (without testing for now) softened with white filter and black filter or hard straight well water with white filter and black filter?

To me all this water stuff seems like the hardest thing to understand in the brewing process. This part is not fun to me at all.

nyer said:

I'm at the point in my homebrewing "career" where I'm starting to think about water and PH.

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The sooner the better.

nyer said:

I have well water and have never tested it, I know it is hard before it goes through my water softener. I also have iron I think because the water causes my tub to turn reddish after awhile.

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You really need to get the water tested. It's not expensive. Check Ward Labs on the web. If your water isn't hard you wouldn't have the softener unless the salesman was sleazier than most. The softener should take iron out. Iron stains are usually an ugly brown.

nyer said:

I have read that softened water is not good for brewing so I ran a seperate water line that bypasses the softener.
I use a white whole house filter and a black carbon filter for it. This water feels noticeably harder to the touch and since I started using it I don't need to use any gypsum for IPA's.

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Don't know what's in the white filter but it's probably a particulate filter which may or may not be necessary. It would trap things like sand picked up by your well pump. The carbon takes out earthy, musty smells. If you don't have those you don't really need this filter but if you do it is definitely a good thing to have.

nyer said:

I know I should test the water and I'd like to have a test done for the softened water and the "hard" water line, but, I may be moving in a year so I would rather not pay for the testing if I don't have to.

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You really need to test the pre-softener water. It will only cost you a few bucks. There is no point in testing the softened water unless you suspect the softener is not performing properly in which case the local water treatment company will be more than happy to come out and test your water free in the hopes of selling you a replacement. If the softener is working post the pre softener report and someone here will tell you what the post softener analysis is.

nyer said:

Lately I have been mostly brewing stout's, IPA's and pale ales and I feel like they are missing something. They don't have a malty taste and they don't have much mouthfeel when I compare them to commercial examples.

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I see those words all the time and they almost always mean mash pH which is too high. If your water is hard it is probably also alkaline. This is easy to check your self. Put some of the pre-softener water in a pot and heat it. If it turns milky and drops a precipitate it is alkaline. The question is how much and you will need a test to determine that.

nyer said:

They are good though but I want more. I don't really have the time to jump all in with water reports and spreadsheets and all that.

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The Primer is for guys like you. You will still need to know what is in your water though.

nyer said:

Of all the microbrewies I have been to only 1 admits to doing water adjustments. Can that be true?

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Could be but where are they getting their water?

nyer said:

I'm looking for the best or easiest option right now and I'm thinking I should start with a PH meter to see where my mash PH is.

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Your first move should be a water test but the second definitely should be a pH meter. It is an invaluable tool to the serious brewer.

nyer said:

I'm also curious what water I should be using (without testing for now) softened with white filter and black filter or hard straight well water with white filter and black filter?

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Unsoftened. As noted above the filters may or may not be necessary but there is certainly no harm in having either or both of them in line.

nyer said:

To me all this water stuff seems like the hardest thing to understand in the brewing process. This part is not fun to me at all.

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Yes, it is a complex subject which cannot really be simplified to the extent we'd like. The Primer represents a shot at that and lots of people are making good beer using it but it has its limitations.

My personal opinion is that you should definitely get a water report if you think your water is not quite right. The simple fact is, until you know what your water is like, you are basically shooting at noises in the dark.

The test is less than $20. The software to make adjustments is free if you feel compelled to perform adjustments on a recipe by recipe basis.

But simply having a report can at least give you an idea of what to do, and what not to do.

The pH meter is nice, but IMO you can get ballpark with a water report and no meter. It's great for double checking your adjustment.

Having a meter and no idea what your water chemistry is will still leave you in the dark on your flavor minerals.

Honestly, with a small bit of tutorial, you can understand the "chemistry" aspect at least well enough to plan additions/subtractions.

Lastly, as I understand it, you probably don't want to use softened water for brewing. I would go with the filtered water. Not sure what to do about a high iron content, but you wont' know what you actually have until you get a report...

You guys talked me into a water test. I have to have both filters, the white one turns black and orange from all the crap in my water so that one is before the softener. After the softener I have the black one for the cold water only. Without it the water smells like sulfer or eggs and tastes terrible. The softener definately works, I replaced it a few years ago and there is a huge noticeable difference between the softened water and the staright well water. If I get my water tested before the softener (white and black filter only) how will I know what is happening after it goes through the softener? Or should I be using the un-softened water and building from there?

The filters are the typical cartridge filters from Lowes, the white one looks like string wrapped around a tube and the black one is a carbon filter.

You will most probably not be using the softened water.

As I said in #2, tell me what the pre softened analysis says and I will tell you what the post softened analysis is (or tell you how to compute it).

ajdelange said:

You will most probably not be using the softened water.

As I said in #2, tell me what the pre softened analysis says and I will tell you what the post softened analysis is (or tell you how to compute it).

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What test do I need, W5, W6 or the beer test? I seem to remember most people getting the W6.

I guess the W6 since iron is a potential concern.

Keeping eye on this..
Got buddy who's in the same boat...

Iron is one of those ions that presents itself to the palate fairly plainly. If you can taste it, its at a level too high for brewing. If you see evidence of rust-colored staining, then you probably have an iron problem. Those are two fairly easy indicators of an iron problem. Testing for iron may not be necessary.

It's pretty clear he's got iron. The question is how much. If it's 0.1 it's not a worry. If it's 0.2 then a 1:1 dilution will get it down to 0.1. If it's 0.5 he'll need a greensand unit or something with similar effect. It's not the binary does he or doesn't he that's important but rather what kind of remediation will be required. Seems to me that omitting the iron test to save $10 isn't very good economy.

Good point. I had not considered the potential of diluting the tap water to get iron under the taste threshold.

I can definately taste the iron from the filtered well water and that water discolors my utility sink pretty fast. My softened water for the rest of the house tastes very good and it doesn't discolor anything. The softener and filters are definately removing the iron and the bad taste. That's what is making me think I should test the softened and the un-softened. What is it about the softened water that makes it bad for brewing, is it the salt? My softener has plastic beads that are rinsed with salt water but I don't taste the salt.

You know, RO systems are not all that expensive, in relation to buying water for each brew. It might make financial sense to pick up a small one of those if treating your water gets to be a big hassle.

nyer said:

My softened water for the rest of the house tastes very good and it doesn't discolor anything. The softener and filters are definately removing the iron and the bad taste. That's what is making me think I should test the softened and the un-softened. What is it about the softened water that makes it bad for brewing, is it the salt?

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The usual answer to that is that it removes beneficial calcium and replaces it with, at best, worthless sodium. So, yes, it is the salt in a sense.

Softeners do have some capacity against iron but the fact that the filter also takes it out tells us it is Fe(III) - not 'clearwater iron'. This is good news as you would not need an oxidizing (aerator, greensand, permanganate) system to get it out. And it says that the softener is probably taking it out by trapping the gunk (Fe2(OH)3) on the beads rather than by exchange of Fe-- for 2Na+.

The reason I'm saying that you don't need a second test on the softener output is because it's pretty easy to predict what that test will show. One simply looks at the first test, subtracts out the calcium magnesium and iron and replaces them with equivalent (which has special meaning in this context) amounts of sodium. Thus the softener water is higher in sodium and very low in calcium, magnesium and iron. But it certainly doesn't hurt to get the second test if you would feel better having it.

ajdelange said:

The usual answer to that is that it removes beneficial calcium and replaces it with, at best, worthless sodium. So, yes, it is the salt in a sense.

Softeners do have some capacity against iron but the fact that the filter also takes it out tells us it is Fe(III) - not 'clearwater iron'. This is good news as you would not need an oxidizing (aerator, greensand, permanganate) system to get it out. And it says that the softener is probably taking it out by trapping the gunk (Fe2(OH)3) on the beads rather than by exchange of Fe-- for 2Na+.

The reason I'm saying that you don't need a second test on the softener output is because it's pretty easy to predict what that test will show. One simply looks at the first test, subtracts out the calcium magnesium and iron and replaces them with equivalent (which has special meaning in this context) amounts of sodium. Thus the softener water is higher in sodium and very low in calcium, magnesium and iron. But it certainly doesn't hurt to get the second test if you would feel better having it.

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Thank you for all of the info. I just did a taste test of all of my water.

White filter only- not as bad as I expected but can taste something maybe slightly metallic (not sure how to describe the taste).

White filter & charcoal filter- definitely much better with a very slight metallic taste. This is the water I have been brewing with for the last year.

Softener with both filters- tastes the best out of all 3. No metallic taste and feels softer. I started brewing with this water and if I didn't add 2 teaspoons of gypsum to the mash you wouldn't think I used any hops.

I'm actually really surprised the un-softened water wasn't much worse. When I bought the house 14 years ago the water smelled and tasted like metal and surfur and was disgusting. I don't notice any sulfer anymore.

Tinny, coinlike? Love that last one. Probably haven't tasted a coin since I turned 5.

However you describe it is is still the iron and if you can taste it coming out of the softener then at least some of it will be Fe(II). This and sulfur are often found together and are often the result of bacteria that metabolize iron and sulfur. You may be able to solve the problem by 'shocking' your well. Check with your county on how to do this. But if the sulfur is gone then the bacteria probably died off on their own.

ajdelange said:

Tinny, coinlike? Love that last one. Probably haven't tasted a coin since I turned 5.

However you describe it is is still the iron and if you can taste it coming out of the softener then at least some of it will be Fe(II). This and sulfur are often found together and are often the result of bacteria that metabolize iron and sulfur. You may be able to solve the problem by 'shocking' your well. Check with your county on how to do this. But if the sulfur is gone then the bacteria probably died off on their own.

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Tinny and coinlike are describe it perfectly. I do shock my well at least once a year and it makes a difference. I also learned the hard way to turn off the icemaker for awhile after shocking it:cross:

ajdelange said:

The usual answer to that is that it removes beneficial calcium and replaces it with, at best, worthless sodium. So, yes, it is the salt in a sense.

Softeners do have some capacity against iron but the fact that the filter also takes it out tells us it is Fe(III) - not 'clearwater iron'. This is good news as you would not need an oxidizing (aerator, greensand, permanganate) system to get it out. And it says that the softener is probably taking it out by trapping the gunk (Fe2(OH)3) on the beads rather than by exchange of Fe-- for 2Na+.

The reason I'm saying that you don't need a second test on the softener output is because it's pretty easy to predict what that test will show. One simply looks at the first test, subtracts out the calcium magnesium and iron and replaces them with equivalent (which has special meaning in this context) amounts of sodium. Thus the softener water is higher in sodium and very low in calcium, magnesium and iron. But it certainly doesn't hurt to get the second test if you would feel better having it.

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My house is treated with a greensand/"pot perm". System. The water now tastes very good with no odor and I do not get the staining in my sink, toilets. Etc, that I did before. I haven't had a water analysis since I installed it but I am tired of paying for brewing water especially after paying for an expensive full house treatment system. Do you think at this point my water is good to go for brewing or should I run my treated water through a Brita for extra treatment?

Greensand is used to remove iron and manganese from water. That water should be better to brew with than the raw water. If the Brita unit only contains activated carbon, then it should be a good idea to use it. That would take out chlorine compounds and any other taste and odor compounds.

Brizzo said:

My house is treated with a greensand/"pot perm". System. The water now tastes very good with no odor and I do not get the staining in my sink, toilets. Etc, that I did before. I haven't had a water analysis since I installed it but I am tired of paying for brewing water especially after paying for an expensive full house treatment system. Do you think at this point my water is good to go for brewing or should I run my treated water through a Brita for extra treatment?

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That would depend on what else is in the water. Presumably you had iron and/or musty organics which the permanganate will have oxidized away but we still need to know about things like calcium, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, sodium and, especially alkalinity (bicarbonate).

Brita pitchers can be used to demineralize water but are somewhat impractical as the volumes they handle are so low and while they used to contain both anion and cation exchange resins there is some debate as to whether they still do.

Your next step would be to send a post greensand unit sample off to Ward Labs to see what else is in there. Then come back here with the report.

I got my water test results, what do you think? I have no idea yet what any of these numbers mean.

pH 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 429
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.71
Cations / Anions, me/L 8.5 / 7.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 9
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 92
Magnesium, Mg 42
Total Hardness, CaCO3 405
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 30
Chloride, Cl 17
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 303
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 248
Total Iron, Fe 0.09
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Wow. Looks pretty hard and alkaline to mine eyes.

But I will allow the true experts to chime in since I know enough to give out potentially bad advice.

I think you've taken your first real steps in figuring out how to mess with your water. I highly recommend you take a listen to some of the podcasts on thebrewingnetwork.com and basicbrewing.com and check out Kai's website on water chemistry.

Homercidal said:

Wow. Looks pretty hard and alkaline to mine eyes.

But I will allow the true experts to chime in since I know enough to give out potentially bad advice.

I think you've taken your first real steps in figuring out how to mess with your water. I highly recommend you take a listen to some of the podcasts on thebrewingnetwork.com and basicbrewing.com and check out Kai's website on water chemistry.

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I have been reading some of the stickys and I think some of my numbers are ok, I am still definitely confused by it all though.

Tough water, high sulfate and magnesium. Dilution is a good solution. Download and read Bru'n Water to figure out what you should be doing with this water.

mabrungard said:

Tough water, high sulfate and magnesium. Dilution is a good solution. Download and read Bru'n Water to figure out what you should be doing with this water.

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I downloaded Bru'N water and Libreoffice and I still can't add anything to the boxes.

It works on my copy of LibreOffice. Of course you can only enter data in the blue colored cells. Any cell of another color is a calculated value and it is protected so that the calculation is not screwed up for the brewer's future use.

mabrungard said:

It works on my copy of LibreOffice. Of course you can only enter data in the blue colored cells. Any cell of another color is a calculated value and it is protected so that the calculation is not screwed up for the brewer's future use.

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I can't do anything with the blue cells. Nothing happens when I click on them and I can't enter any numbers.

You may have been duped by Google. I see that they changed the layout of the file download area on the Bru'n Water site. If you click on the Excel file name, it brings up the file in Google Docs. Unfortunately, Bru'n Water will not work properly in Docs.

At the far right-hand side of the file download page for Bru'n Water, you will also see downward-pointing red arrows. Those are what you click to begin the download process.

Thanks for screwing me, Google. I've added text on the web page to help users find the proper icon to click and download the file.

nyer said:

I got my water test results, what do you think? I have no idea yet what any of these numbers mean.

pH 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 429
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.71
Cations / Anions, me/L 8.5 / 7.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 9
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 92
Magnesium, Mg 42
Total Hardness, CaCO3 405
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 30
Chloride, Cl 17
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 303
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 248
Total Iron, Fe 0.09
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

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Where did you get your testing done and how much was it?

Pugs13 said:

Where did you get your testing done and how much was it?

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Wards labs and $22.50 with the extra iron test. Do a search on here, tons of info on them.

mabrungard said:

You may have been duped by Google. I see that they changed the layout of the file download area on the Bru'n Water site. If you click on the Excel file name, it brings up the file in Google Docs. Unfortunately, Bru'n Water will not work properly in Docs.

At the far right-hand side of the file download page for Bru'n Water, you will also see downward-pointing red arrows. Those are what you click to begin the download process.

Thanks for screwing me, Google. I've added text on the web page to help users find the proper icon to click and download the file.

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It seems to work now, thanks.

Holy crap, I spent the last hour reading and playing with BruN water and my head is ready to explode. I almost wish I didn't start thinking about my water.

Fiddling with water chemistry is not for the beginner. It is a very intricate if not complex subject. At the outset you should be concerned with making good beer. There is plenty of time to study the intricacies later. The Primer was done for people like OP. His water is terrible for brewing. There are things that can be done but it is going to be much easier and the results much more consistent if he throws it out (or dilutes it to the point where it is effectively thrown out i.e. 9:1) and starts with a clean sheet of paper i.e. RO water. The Primer was written for people in OP's position.

This is not what I wanted to hear. I ran a dedicated water line to my system so I didn't have to carry buckets of water anymore. Now it sounds like I might have to go buy it and haul it home too. Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure I'm moving from NY to Florida next year so I hate to invest in a system to fix my water unless it's something I can take with me. Is there some type of small RO system I can install easily and then remove and take with me when I move? I'd rather invest in a home system than buy and haul water.

Yes, there are small RO systems for a little over $100. They produce 5 gallons a day and are small enough that they can be installed in one house deinstalled and moved to another. I gave two such systems to other brewers when I upgraded and AFAIK they were both successfully installed in their houses. If you plan to do that I'd be careful about saving cartons, bits not used in the current installation etc.

What's an approximate upkeep cost per year for a $100 RO unit?

$0.00

If all you are using it for is brewing you can't be taking more than a couple of hundred gallons a year from it. One of the units I gave away had been in service for at least 4 years and other probably for 2. I never replaced anything but then I'm on a well so I never had to change the carbon filter to deal with chlorine/chloramine.

It's going to be at least a few more weeks before I will have a chance to brew again. I'm going to buy some water for the next brew so I can see the difference it makes. I can buy gallons of distilled water or Walmart has a machine that sells water in 5 gallon jugs. I'm not sure what kind of water that is yet, I have to go take a look.

It will be RO.

ajdelange said:

It will be RO.

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Is one better than the other?