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Old 04-19-2010, 10:05 AM   #1
Stein
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Default Water profile for a Schwarzbier?

Brewing Jamil's Schwarzbier soon and I am unsure about what water profile to use. I am using TH's spreadsheet, which has been invaluable in the past, but I don't know what to do here.

I basically use RO water and add salts until I get the correct profile. I am using the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles that makes the beer more like a Kostritzer, so only a pound of Munich will be used, which means that over 80% of the grain bill is Pilsner malt. I am assuming I will be using the Pilsen profile, but the problem I'm running into is that the residual alkalinity number is wayyy too low. The SRM is 23 so I will need to increase the RA somehow.

Which brings me to another problem, the Pilsen profile has mineral levels so low, TH's spreadsheet says they are too low even for the bare minimum. For example, the overall recommended range for calcium is at least 50 for all styles, but the Pilsen profile says it should be 10.

So, basically, I cannot think of a possible way to get the RA number up without dramatically increasing the mineral content, which needs to stay low for the style.

Is there another profile I should use instead of Pilsen? Keep in mind, this is the more Pilsner'ish recipe. I want this to be a nice clean beer with as little roasted character as possible... just like Kostritzer.

Thanks

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Old 04-19-2010, 04:36 PM   #2
sjlammer
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Let's see the whole grain bill.

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Old 04-19-2010, 04:43 PM   #3
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Here's what I got just based on your description... I think you have to hit at least some minimum numbers.... but i have never been a big pilsener guy

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3 / 3.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 2 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 1.166666667
MgSO4: 1.2 / 1.4
NaHCO3: 0.5 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 95 / 57
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 12 / 6
Cl: 42 / 42
SO4: 41 / 41
CaCO3: 113 / 52

RA (mash only): 39 (8 to 13 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.03 (Balanced)

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Old 04-20-2010, 06:27 AM   #4
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Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately the RA is too low for the SRM beer I am doing.

I guess I'll just have to keep playing around with the spreadsheet to find the right combination.

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Old 04-20-2010, 06:55 AM   #5
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Here is the recipe from Beersmith


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Jamil's Schwarzbier
Brewer: Stein
Asst Brewer:
Style: Schwarzbier (Black Beer)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 23.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.90 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 83.16 %
0.90 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.47 %
0.70 lb Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 7.37 %
1.65 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (60 min)Hops 26.9 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (20 min)Hops 2.7 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.28 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) [StarterYeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 12.64 qt of water at 161.8 F 151.0 F


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've been thinking... this is a very, very, very light beer if it wasn't for the carafa II. Should I not even worry about the mash pH since the carafa is such a small part of the grain bill? I understand the importance of maintaining a certain pH range when you are brewing a stout, or a porter, or any dark beer with a lot of roasted grains, but the dark coloration of the schwarzbier, at least in this recipe, is mostly cosmetic, considering that the Carafa II doesn't really impart much of a roasted character.

Should I just pretend I'm brewing a Pilsner and go from there? It would be MUCH easier to brew with soft water and not have to worry about raising the RA to #23, while keeping the water soft.

I realize this is a technical question. Could TH or Bobby_M or one of the other masters in water chemistry help me out here? I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

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Old 04-20-2010, 02:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post

I've been thinking... this is a very, very, very light beer if it wasn't for the carafa II. Should I not even worry about the mash pH since the carafa is such a small part of the grain bill? I understand the importance of maintaining a certain pH range when you are brewing a stout, or a porter, or any dark beer with a lot of roasted grains, but the dark coloration of the schwarzbier, at least in this recipe, is mostly cosmetic, considering that the Carafa II doesn't really impart much of a roasted character.
Knowing Schwartzbiers, i know that there is just a small amount of highly kilned malt (your recipe confirms what i thought). I believe (i have not checked this) that this adds alot of color without adding as much acidity as a similar SRM stout or Porter. This is why i did not try to get to an RA appropriate for a 23 SRM beer.

I basically tried to get the CA and MG up high enough for yeast health, then balanced the Sulphate with Chloride, and then bumped the RA up a little. to account for the "darkness".

Again, Im not an experienced pilsener brewer, so i am a little anxious have no minerals in the water. I just responded because i have asked water chemistry questions before and have not gotten responses, which can be frustrating. I hope that I helped at least a little
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~"A fine beer may be judged with only one sip, but it's better to be thoroughly sure.”

On Deck: Spruce APA, Chambord Fortified Chocolate Porter, Imperial IPA

Primary:
Primary:
Secondary: Belgian Dark Strong Ale
Conical:
Lagering: None
Kegged/Drinking: Cascade, Cent., Amarillo Pale Ale
Kegged/Drinking: Belgian Pale Ale (HG yeast for yeast cropping see above)
Bottled: ESB

Last edited by sjlammer; 04-20-2010 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
I just responded because i have asked water chemistry questions before and have not gotten responses, which can be frustrating.
Well I appreciate it. I know what you mean. These kinds of questions just don't get a lot of responses because a lot of people don't do water adjustments.
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