Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet - Page 3

**samc** · 11-13-2009, 04:57 AM

Always enjoy your videos - great job as usual. I do find however that using Brewater 3.0 is a much easier way to start with water adjustment. The trial and error is frustrating at first until you get a feel for what each addition will do to the final water profile. I always shake my head at how lame the water adjustment in BTP is.

**Bobby_M** · 11-13-2009, 02:14 PM

I tried using brewater but my perception was exactly opposite. I felt that hitting the auto calculate function completely took the learning out of it. I also wanted to see the residual alk effects and Cl:SO4 ratio rather than just targeting a profile.

Totally agree on the lameness of BTP for water. That's why I paste the spreadsheet output into the notes.

Daddymem · 11-22-2009, 10:02 PM

Thanks a ton for this...it really makes things a little clearer. One question though, what does the "Best for this Style" section mean? You show in video 2 that when you adjusted for a Pale Ale it changed to "very bitter." Would this affect your recipe formulation for hops? Or would the "very bitter" indication just be used as an guide that if you were shooting for a malty beer, you probably still want to adjust things to get that to "malty".

Bobby, can I pm you with my water issues? I too was told my water is fine, just brew with it. My water is more or less a blank slate (very low mineral content) with a manganese and a pH problem (acidic). I know it needs adjustment. We did an IPA group brew at one guys house and months later the same recipe at my house, and the results are night and day. My bare water profile indicates "malty" which matched what we got.

**Bobby_M** · 11-23-2009, 02:55 AM

You can always PM me but posting things publicly means smarter people will chime in.

I think of Cl:S04 ratio as which direction the accentuation is going to go. It's more of a perception thing. You can hop to the same IBU, but the one with the "malty" ratio is going to have a murky/dull bitterness. I've only brewed one pale ale with boosted sulfates since learning about this stuff but it's clearly better than previous attempts.

Daddymem · 11-23-2009, 12:42 PM

"You can hop to the same IBU, but the one with the "malty" ratio is going to have a murky/dull bitterness."

That IS a perfect description of the difference between the two brews. The one with city water had a sharp hop bite, the one with my well water had a murky flavor. We did 20 gallons going home in 5 gallon batches for individual yeast and fermentation procedures and they all came back with that murky flavor.

I'll bite, I'll post up my questions and examples. First, here is my water profile:

As you can see, this water is extremely low in minerals and is very soft. There is also a pH problem. I've gone through 2 packages of bad pH strips and have a third coming so I don't know what my mash pH typically is yet. Manganese is also present above recommended levels, but noone has been able to tell me how that may react in a beer environment.

Here is what I get when I punch it into the spreadsheet with no modifications (the way I normally brew is to add 5.2):
Starting Water (ppm):

Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 2 / 2
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 4 / 4
CaCO3: ERROR / ERROR

RA (mash only): -2 (5 to 10 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 2.05 (Very Malty)

I brew in a bag so no sparge water. You can see it is very deficient in sulfate, calcium and magnesium. The problem I am having is fiddling with the salt additions to raise what I need without throwing others out of whack. I'll post later when I can how far I am with making adjustments for IPA and Pale Ale styles.

Hope this isn't too long and will be informative and helpful for others too. Everyone I talk to about my water just state that this is beautiful water for brewing and I think your spreadsheet just enforced an opinion I had that it really isn't. It isn't horrible, but does need some adjustment.

Daddymem · 11-23-2009, 12:55 PM

I've caught an extra couple minutes here so I'll post up my Pale Ale adjustment:

This page can be used for copying and pasting

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 13 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 1 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 113 / 113
Mg: 15 / 15
Na: 32 / 32
Cl: 31 / 31
SO4: 337 / 337
CaCO3: ERROR / ERROR

RA (mash only): -90 (0 to 3 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.09 (Very Bitter)

I think there is an error in the spreadsheet. I22 uses a value in L3. L3 is either "true" for Bicarbonate or "false" for Alkalinity but the equation in L3 looks for a value of "1" or "2". Change 1 to true and 2 to false in the equation and it appears to work:

This page can be used for copying and pasting

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 13 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 1 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 113 / 113
Mg: 15 / 15
Na: 32 / 32
Cl: 31 / 31
SO4: 337 / 337
CaCO3: 38 / 38

RA (mash only): -52 (1 to 6 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.09 (Very Bitter)

Does it look like I am on the right track? These additions aren't enormous...that's what I get for the IPA. I'll post that later.

**-TH-** · 11-23-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

I think there is an error in the spreadsheet. I22 uses a value in L3. L3 is either "true" for Bicarbonate or "false" for Alkalinity but the equation in L3 looks for a value of "1" or "2". Change 1 to true and 2 to false in the equation and it appears to work:

I'll chime in real quick here on the spreadsheet error. On my spreadsheet L3 is either "1" or "2" depending on whether you choose Bicarbonate or Alkalinity. What version of Excel are you using? I could change the equation to look for either 1 OR true, and 2 OR false, but I first want to find out more about what you are using. I noticed that your results use the 11ppm as Alkalinity(CaCO3) instead of Bicarbonate(HCO3) like it should. If I plug in your data, my resulting Alkalinity shows 31 (which is what it should be) and not 38 like yours. I can get it to show 38 if I change the 11ppm to be Alkalinity(CaCO3) instead of Bicarbonate(HCO3).

Daddymem · 11-23-2009, 01:21 PM

Here's my IPA using the Burton profile:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7 / 0
CaSO4: 28.5 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 6.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 3.25 / 0
NaCl: 0.25 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 352 / 352
Mg: 24 / 24
Na: 44 / 44
Cl: 14 / 14
SO4: 700 / 700
CaCO3: 258 / 258

RA (mash only): -8 (5 to 9 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.02 (Very Bitter)

Everything hits the target well except for the Sulfate. I'm stuck on how to raise that without raising the other salts. Also, the Burton profile seems really high from other profiles I've seen for IPAs. I don't have Mosher's book, I've borrowed it before. Is there somewhere online with some basic water profiles?

Daddymem · 11-23-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -TH-

I'll chime in real quick here on the spreadsheet error. On my spreadsheet L3 is either "1" or "2" depending on whether you choose Bicarbonate or Alkalinity. What version of Excel are you using? I could change the equation to look for either 1 OR true, and 2 OR false, but I first want to find out more about what you are using. I noticed that your results use the 11ppm as Alkalinity(CaCO3) instead of Bicarbonate(HCO3) like it should. If I plug in your data, my resulting Alkalinity shows 31 (which is what it should be) and not 38 like yours. I can get it to show 38 if I change the 11ppm to be Alkalinity(CaCO3) instead of Bicarbonate(HCO3).

I'm using Open Office. I use the 11 alkalinity from my water test sample. Would the Bicarbonate value be 9.5 as Hardness in my water test sample?

Daddymem · 11-23-2009, 01:26 PM

BTW, awesome job on the spreadsheet -TH-!