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martinworswick · 09-25-2010, 08:43 PM

heres my profile with a fictitious grain bill and no adjustments-

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29.3
Mg: 4.1
Na: 2.5
Cl: 1.1
SO4: 7.6
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.224 / 10.032
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 14.326
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.6612
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 12

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 29 / 29
Mg: 4 / 4
Na: 3 / 3
Cl: 1 / 1
SO4: 8 / 8
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.14 / 0.14

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 67
RA: 44
Estimated pH: 5.35

so, as my ph falls within the ideal range should i do nothing? or should i try and get my RA below 0? ca,mg and so all fall below recommended brewing ranges,is this something to try and remedy or just ignore?

i remember listening to a brewstrong podcast about water and they used the example of 4 german styles with very similar recipes but differing water profiles which gave the different flavours, is it only in situations like this that you would actually try and match a particular profile?

remilard · 09-25-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Where are you seeing high pH? My mash pH is low without adjustments, don't I need to increase it?

On my Hanna meter. I've never mashed in low and without acid malt rarely mash in below 5.5.

IMO you can ignore magnesium on an all malt beer or really anything close to an all malt beer.

Daddymem · 09-25-2010, 09:52 PM

So you are saying, that even with RO water (fairly close to what I have), your mash pH is high enough? Even with my low alkalinity and RA of 9 without adjustment? The buffer in malt is that high? The magnesium is for the yeast, no? I've read that most malt has enough in it, but I was assuming that is based on a normal water profile and not RO water.

**ajdelange** · 09-25-2010, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Where are you seeing high pH? My mash pH is low without adjustments, don't I need to increase it?

I'm not seeing it, I'm suspecting it based on my experience and the way you described the flavor of you beer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Wow, lots to digest.

Yes, I'm afraid this is a rather complex subject. I've been trying for years to find a simple way to explain it and I just can't. That doesn't mean that there isn't a simple explanation, just that I am too simple to find it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

I do not have a pH meter. Just going by the EZ spreadsheet my pH is way low.

Unfortunately there are just too many variables to allow accurate prediction of mash pH from water chemisty or titratatble acidity measurements of malts. For example, Weyermann says the titratable acidity of their sauermalz in betteen 1 and 2%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

The spreadsheet appears to use SRM in the calcs contrary to some of your statements that SRM shouldn't be used.

I recommended to TH that he take it out all together but he chose not to. I will make recommendations to people but will not tell them what to do (you can guess what kind of a manager I was). I plugged numbers for one of beers into the new EZ spreadsheet and it predicted pH 4.9 wile I actually got 5.3. So it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He's put lots of caveats on the new version. Heed them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

If I am reading correctly, you are saying use in the range of 1 tsp per 5 gallons of Calcium Chloride which should bring my Calcium levels to the appropriate level.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Then maybe some epsom salt to get some magnesium in there (maybe even ignore this?)

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Then some gypsum to alter the Cl SO4 ratio.

Yes, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the ratio - look at the absolute levels as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Ignore SRM and pH calculations based on it?

Yes. Measure your pH. A decent meter is under $100 these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

Something like this?
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 3.15
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 23
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.5
Roasted Grain: 3.5
Beer Color (SRM): 54

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 5 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 100 / 66
Mg: 18 / 12
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 93 / 64
SO4: 196 / 130
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.48 / 0.49

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 11
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 4.86

Yes, but your mash pH will very probably not be as low as 4.86. I have said many times that you can't model everything accurately and repeatably enough to predict mash pH but my gut says 5.2-5.5.

Daddymem · 09-25-2010, 11:11 PM

Sweet, I think I got it good enough for what I need for my regular beers. I don't enter contests, and I like my beers, I'd just like to get this one as good as I can...it is for a special celebration in 5 years....I'll be officially cancer free!

I find THs spreadsheet very helpful and I can see using it to assist still.

Thanks for the info!....and patience. I really do appreciate it!

remilard · 09-26-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymem

So you are saying, that even with RO water (fairly close to what I have), your mash pH is high enough? Even with my low alkalinity and RA of 9 without adjustment? The buffer in malt is that high? The magnesium is for the yeast, no? I've read that most malt has enough in it, but I was assuming that is based on a normal water profile and not RO water.

My water has RA = 12, which is close enough to RO or distilled as to be insignificant.

I am saying that without adding acid, my pH is never low enough.

What we all agree on (I think), is that pilsner malt and distilled water will give a pH of about 5.8.

We also agree that adding darker grain will lower this. Where we disagree is how much. And when I say we, I mean the pH meter and the model disagree.

Not everyone can or wants to own a pH meter, but the observations of those who do use one should be informative.

-TH- · 09-26-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard

Not everyone can or wants to own a pH meter, but the observations of those who do use one should be informative.

Since you're offering, I would love to see some of your hard data. It appears that yours is a little different than Kai's. PM me if you'd like.

remilard · 09-27-2010, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -TH-

Since you're offering, I would love to see some of your hard data. It appears that yours is a little different than Kai's. PM me if you'd like.

I don't have any data on titratable acidity of various grains or pH of test mashes of specialty grains.

I can give you, for several beers, grist, grist/liquor ratio, mash pH, RA of water used etc. But this isn't the kind of data Kai has published (as far as I know).

-TH- · 09-27-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard

I can give you, for several beers, grist, grist/liquor ratio, mash pH, RA of water used etc.

If it's not too much trouble I would greatly appreciate it.

AJ, I would love to see your historical data too (again, if it's not too much trouble).

I certainly don't expect either of you to retype pages of notes just for my sake. But if you've got something easily transmittable...

remilard · 09-27-2010, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -TH-

If it's not too much trouble I would greatly appreciate it.

AJ, I would love to see your historical data too (again, if it's not too much trouble).

I certainly don't expect either of you to retype pages of notes just for my sake. But if you've got something easily transmittable...

I should be able to put together a table of grist, liquor ratio, RA and measured pH.

I am home 3 of the next 25 days so realistically it may be a month.