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Old 08-31-2012, 06:52 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ajdelange
I'll also point out that the 'Vital Statistics about Burton-on-Trent water profile' do not represent any water that ever existed on the face of the earth (or anywhere in the universe) at reasonable pH. The numbers represent 17.7 mEq/L cations and 21.7 mEq/L anions. Cations and anions are balanced in any real water sample.
I went through the calculations and got the same thing. Even the numbers in Palmer's book represent an unbalanced solution: 20.1mEq/L cations and 23.0mEq/L anions. It is very interesting that they do not balance. Now, assume that the unbalanced anions dissociate with equivalent H+, by my calculations that would be a pH < 3, which is very low. I think one would reasonably say that pH is too low and further assume either (1) the analysis is totally bogus, or (2) the analysis is incomplete, i.e., there are undocumented cations, such as non-alkaline metal or ammonium, and possibly anions in the solution.
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Furthermore it is quite possible that you can make a better Piffelburger than they did because they were stuck with Pifferlburg water and you can have any water you want.
Therefore, so called Burton water profiles are flawed, not only because they are speculative, and we cannot know exactly what was Burton water, but also because more recent studies of "Burton water" have determined what an optimum "Burton water" profile should be, especially for an IPA.

Is that a fair summary of what you (AJ) said above?
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:22 PM   #12
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I think one would reasonably say that pH is too low and further assume either (1) the analysis is totally bogus, or (2) the analysis is incomplete, i.e., there are undocumented cations, such as non-alkaline metal or ammonium, and possibly anions in the solution.
Part of the problem is "Carbonates (ppm):200". I don't know what that means. I know it does not mean there are 200 mg of carbonate ion in each liter of the water because that is just unreasonable (there would have to be tons of bicarbonate) and would have the water supersaturated given the calcium level. So I know what it's not but I don't know what it is. Could it be a bicarbonate level? An alkalinity value (expressed as CaCO3 or CaO)? What's the pH?

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Therefore, so called Burton water profiles are flawed, not only because they are speculative, and we cannot know exactly what was Burton water, but also because more recent studies of "Burton water" have determined what an optimum "Burton water" profile should be, especially for an IPA.
One cannot speak of an optimum without saying what the optimality criterion is. Does optimality represent the beer you like best or the one your friend likes best or the one that wins BOS? The answer to that question will drive the mineral content of the water you decide to use. See the thread at http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/tho...ources-350970/ for more on this philosophy.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:00 PM   #13
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I tasted the minerally IIPA this morning. It is very salty! But I think it's salvageable. I would like to add 5 gallons of a 1.04 OG extract IPA to dilute and re-ferment. Any suggestions?

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Old 09-01-2012, 06:33 PM   #14
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Who's extract are you using in that IIPA? If it was Briess, their malt extract products are full of sodium. At 1.045, there is 100 ppm sodium in the wort assuming you start with RO or distilled water. If your water already has sodium, then add it to the number above. As the gravity goes up, so does the sodium content. If the extract came from a homebrew shop and is their own label, its probably Briess extract bought in bulk and repackaged.

The problem is that the tap water that Briess uses in their brewing and extract production comes from the City of Chilton. Chilton performs ion-exchange softening on their water supply. Sorry for the bad news. This finding applies to both their liquid and dry malt extract products. I'm pretty sad about this since I use their DME for all my starters. Fortunately, my starters have a low gravity and I siphon off all the spent wort prior to pitching the slurry.

I have confirmed that Coopers malt extract does not have this problem. I have not heard back from Muntons yet.

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Old 09-01-2012, 06:35 PM   #15
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The first thing I would do is get a can of neutral (i.e. American megabrew) beer and fill a glass half full of that and top up with the beer you want to rescue. If the mix still tastes salty then a 1:1 dilution isn't going to be enough. If this does solve the problem then you can brew really anything you like that doesn't conflict with the original plan (e.g. you wouldn't brew a Weizenbier) and blend that in.

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Old 09-02-2012, 05:41 PM   #16
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MA,
There is an an analysis of Muntons extract here.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/mun...alysis-140262/

Looks like its mineral content is less than Bries. For 1.045 OG I get about 75 ppm of Na in Muntons extract. So a little better.

AJ, I diluted the beer with an ESB this morning and it tasted fine. So I'm going to either leave it or double the batch to dilute it.

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Old 09-02-2012, 08:51 PM   #17
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I just saw the post on the Muntons analysis. Thanks for resurrecting it. That is quite a range they provide for the Ca and Na. It's really not helpful for making any evaluation of their extract excepting to say that it appears less mineralized than Briess. Now that I have that information, I can ask Muntons directly to revisit those values with me. By the way, the Mg and K concentrations are due primarily from the malt since malt contributes large quantities to the wort.

Your calculation for 75 ppm Na in the 1.045 wort agrees with my calcs. The good thing with that Muntons analysis is that the Na could be much lower, given the range they provide. The real problem with using these extracts is when you start boosting the gravity with extract and end up with excessive Na in the finished beer. That could be flavor negative since sodium has shown negative synergy when chloride and sulfate are also high. Brewer beware!

This sucks, doesn't it!

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Old 09-02-2012, 11:23 PM   #18
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It does suck! Have you seem MoreBeer extract. I started a new thread asking if any one has info on its mineral content. I'm hopeful because it's made in San Francisco which appears to have very soft water.

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Old 09-09-2012, 06:04 PM   #19
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I started the process to make the second beer for blending. Racked salty wort after 12 days into secondary and refrigerated. Tried to harvest yeast, but after two gallons of DI water rinse, and overnight floc, decant still very salty. So discarding salty yeast and making a new starter.

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