Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Thoughts on ancient famous water sources
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-30-2012, 09:25 PM   #11
RCCOLA
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northwest Arkansas
Posts: 1,066
Liked 68 Times on 44 Posts
Likes Given: 57

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMc0724 View Post
therefore, it is important to know the actual ion concentrations of these famous water sources.
How else is there to see this?
It isn't important to me. Another way to see it is very simple. The brewers of those regions did what was necessary to make good beer. Whether it was an acid rest, decoction mashing, or adding or decreasing dark malts to affect pH, it was all for the end result of good tasting beer with their available resources.

So, I don't need to perform a bunch of steps to make good beer. I can get hoppiness in an IPA from ~70-100 ppm of SO4. I can get maltiness in an o'fest from a moderate CaCl2 addition. I can get soft malty character of a bopils from very small mineral addition to RO water. I can lower mash pH with acid malt or phosphoric acid.

Matching water profiles isn't valueable to me to improve my beers. A bunch of mineral additions that may or may not have been in classic brewing regions water sources wont help me at all.
__________________
RCCOLA is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2012, 10:47 PM   #12
SMc0724
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Beaumont, Tx
Posts: 143
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

Well it all very interesting, especially the long and detailed response from AJ. A lot of good information there, and since I am starting with distilled water, I will be studying up more on the mineral additions for the styles. I'm getting Palmer's spreadsheet to start on this. Plus I plan to be much more careful before adding any additives to my beer in the future. :-) Thank-you.

I'm not sure what RC means by, "It isn't important to me." and "Matching water profiles isn't valueable to me to improve my beers." I'm not able to use my tap water for brewing so I buy distilled. Now, I've got to decide where to go with it. As a BIAB brewer, I understand that the malt will have minerals in it. But, why should I live with that. I mean the door is wide open for me to go in any direction from distilled, which is empty of minerals. So why not study ideal water profiles, and the historically great ones?

To me, the past is prologue and I hope to avoid (any more) stupid mistakes by learning from the past. Per Winston Churchill, the further back you can look, the further forward you are likely to see.

__________________
SMc0724 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2012, 11:10 PM   #13
Wynne-R
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 906
Liked 97 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 82

Default

Ahh yes, but Isaac Newton uncharacteristically modestly said he could see a little farther because he was standing on the shoulders of giants.

It would be equally dumb to ignore the past or be stuck in it. Take what you’ve learned and move on.

__________________
Wynne-R is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2012, 11:24 PM   #14
RCCOLA
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northwest Arkansas
Posts: 1,066
Liked 68 Times on 44 Posts
Likes Given: 57

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMc0724 View Post
I'm not sure what RC means by, "It isn't important to me." and "Matching water profiles isn't valueable to me to improve my beers." I'm not able to use my tap water for brewing so I buy distilled. So why not study ideal water profiles, and the historically great ones?
Because they aren't ideal. The brewers in those regions manipulated the water and ingredients to be able to use less than ideal water.

I use RO water for every brew. I add very conservative mineral additions to achieve the character I want from the beer. When I brew an IPA I don't try to match Burton's water profile. When I brew Vienna lager, I don't try to match Vienna's water profile.

I add small additions of gypsum and or calcium chloride to accentuate the characteristics I want out of the beer then adjust mash pH if necessary with lime or acid. Read the stickied primer on water chemistry at the top of the page. Its a great way to start.

Trying to match the world's water profiles is not the way to approach water chemistry.
__________________
RCCOLA is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2012, 12:40 AM   #15
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,274
Liked 634 Times on 524 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCCOLA View Post
Because they aren't ideal.
Far from it. Most of them aren't even physically possible.
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2012, 01:22 AM   #16
SMc0724
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Beaumont, Tx
Posts: 143
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

RC thanks for the clarification of your view.

Wynne, I believe we are saying the same thing. Standing on the shoulders of giants is also a reference to the past, albeit past successes. I never said ignore the past! In fact just the opposite! I'll say it again: The past is prologue.

I'm not convinced that studying past profiles is unimportant, even if they are partially flawed. I've learned so much already with this discussion. I do understand the limits of doing so.

__________________
SMc0724 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2012, 02:24 AM   #17
RCCOLA
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northwest Arkansas
Posts: 1,066
Liked 68 Times on 44 Posts
Likes Given: 57

Default

Smc, I suggest you download EZ water calculator, plug in some recipes, and get a feel for what salts do to mash pH. I think it will really help you out.

__________________
RCCOLA is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2012, 02:04 PM   #18
SMc0724
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Beaumont, Tx
Posts: 143
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

RC, Good thoughts. I local microbrewer friend of mine sent me his, and I've heard Palmer's is good as well. So, I'll look at them all. Give a chance to brush up on my water chemistry course from college. :-)

__________________
SMc0724 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2012, 03:58 PM   #19
gbx
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Posts: 638
Liked 76 Times on 61 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
I find it a little ironic that different styles evolved largely to address the shortcomings of the local water. Before chemistry, it was all trial and error.
The evolution of styles had much more to do with malting and fermentation technology than water. Everyone's beer was dark and sour until malting technology allowed for pale beers, the knowledge of microbiology allowed brewers to isolate brett and other souring organisms and refridgeration gave rise to lager beer.
__________________
gbx is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2012, 06:49 PM   #20
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,274
Liked 634 Times on 524 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Not really. Brewers could change malts, change hops, have malt and hops shipped in etc but they couldn't change their water nor have it shipped in. What makes Pilsner Urquel Pilsner Urquell is the water. What makes Export Export is the water. Brewers had to adapt to the water they had available. At Pilsen they found the best beers were made with pale malts by triple decoction mashing using an acid rest, Saazer hops, bottom fermenting yeast and lagering given the water they had available. Were they working in Dublin they would have used darker malts, an ale strain, different hops and an infusion mash because that made the best beer given the water they had.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools




Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS