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Old 03-02-2011, 02:52 PM   #101
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Awesome info!
The combined mashes reflect a more typical use of the crystal malts in all-grain.
The all crystal mashes should be of interest to extract + steeping grain brewers.

This debunks the myth that crystal is totally unfermentable.
Without crunching numbers, I'm guessing that a malt bill with 10% C40
would have a FG within a point of all base grain.

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Old 03-06-2011, 02:16 AM   #102
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Brewed another 3 batches of 2row+crystals today, now fermenting.
OG's were pretty close to previous test, 1.024 for C10 and C120, 1.025 for C40.
Looking good.
Oh, by the way, pulled the trigger on these two babies below.
Got it delivered today, tested both and works like a charm.
Can't wait to start making water adjustments and get my beers to another level

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Old 03-06-2011, 07:27 AM   #103
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Love my digital refractometer. So much easier that the manual ones with my bad eyes. One thing I did figure out though is to pull a sample and let it settle if it's more turbid and then pull from that for a reading.

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Old 03-08-2011, 01:18 AM   #104
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I'm extremely surprised that we're seeing final gravities of 1.010 or lower on the crystal malt fermentations. That's better than what most people get from extract!

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Old 03-08-2011, 01:26 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNBrews View Post
I'm extremely surprised that we're seeing final gravities of 1.010 or lower on the crystal malt fermentations. That's better than what most people get from extract!
Remember that the OG was only 1.020, so what really matters here is the attenuation% and not FG.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:56 PM   #106
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Comparing the combined mash to the earlier single grain steep of C40:

OG 1.024 - FG 1.008 - Apparent attenuation 67%
The half-pound of 2-row contributed 12.5 gravity points and attenuated 80% leaving 2.5 GP.
The half pound of C40 contributed 11.5 gravity points (50% more than steeping)
and attenuated 52% (50% higher than steeping) leaving 5.5 GP.
And starch was negative, so less starch haze in the final product.

Does that sound like an accurate summary?

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Old 03-08-2011, 08:42 PM   #107
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From my calculation, PPG from C40 was 43% more than when steeped alone, from 8 to 11.5
Attenuation on C40 was 52%, comparing to 40% when steeped alone.
Other than that, your numbers sounds about right.

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Old 03-10-2011, 12:55 AM   #108
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OK, I think I can make my final conclusions from what I learned with this test. I wish I had better equipment and time to do many more batches and get more data points, but hey, I gotta brew my beers guys

I'll comment first than show all images.

1)Table with all that was tested and results
2)Fermentation/Gravity chart of all that was tested. I excluded this last test I just did (test 16/17/18) to make it easier to understand the graph.
3)PPG or sugar extraction chart
4)Attenuation chart

This experiment bring simple conclusions, may not indicate accurate values due to the reduced data points and accuracy of tools used, but I hope it give us some light to what crystal malts do to our recipes:

A)Crystal malt have sugars but still hold starches that can be converted
B)The amount of sugars that one can extract from crystal malts would increase if mashed with a base malt since the starches will be converted. PPG showed to increase by about 20%, regardless of the kilning level of the crystal malt.
B)The sugars from crystal malts are VERY fermentable, contrary to what we knew. Fermentability will depend on multiple factors like:
-Steeping crystal malt alone will yield sugars that can be attenuated by 50% for crystal 10 and 40% for darker malts.
-Mashing crystal malts with base malts will yield sugars that are almost as fermentable as base malt itself. For the 50-50% rate used, sugars from crystal-10 malts were attenuated by 70% while crystal 40 and 120 by 52% minimums. For a 10% crystal to grist rate, I guess it could be treated just as a base malt, which means very fermentable.

The basic recipe guidelines would be:
1)If steeping crystal malts, expect lower PPG than when mashing. About 50% of the poits you get from the malt will be left to FG for light malts and 60% for darker malts
2)If mashing with a base malt, treat crystal just like a base malt, specially if using lowe amounts like 10 to 20%. So don't blame the crystal malt for a higher FG since most of its sugars will be fermented.
3)Regardless, crystal malts doesn't seem to be the best thing to use to add residual sugars to the final beer. Perhaps mashing at higher temp is the way to go, along with Lactose or Dextrin (that we believe is not fermentable. I may have to test that also)

Note.: All tests were done with mashing/steeping temp at 155F and fermentation with S04 at constant (really constant) 70F.

Here some facts for this testing:

18 test batches
18 pounds of barley malt
5-1/4 pounds of rice hulls
6 packs S04 yeast
36h of active brewing
114 gravity readings
38 days of fermentation

table_final.jpg   graph_030111.jpg   final_ppgbar.jpg   final_attnbar.jpg  
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:54 PM   #109
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Outstanding work. Rejecting conventional wisdom in the search for knowledge is the mark of a visionary. References stating Crystal malts as unfermentable never made sense to me. Thank you for collecting this data. This kind of work will help in FG predictions. Somebody give this scientist an honorary PHD.

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Old 05-04-2011, 09:04 PM   #110
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So, now who has the balls to pull the trigger on re-brewing a pale ale recipe that used 8oz of C60 with 48oz of C10 replacing some of the base malt for the same OG?

I have to say that I'd be scared to brew that, my instincts would have told me that you would end up at 1.020 or more! Based on this thread, you should still expect slightly (5%) less attenuation.

-Paul

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