Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Side by side water modification test
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2009, 03:21 AM   #1
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,004
Liked 966 Times on 646 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default Side by side water modification test

Since I'm going to try peddling the virtues of water analysis and correction to my homebrew club in the near future, I thought it would be a good idea to confirm the benefits for myself and allow them to taste it first hand.

I know my water is pretty bad for light pale ales because not only is my chloride to sulfate ratio 4:1, but they are both low. I brewed two small 1/2 gallon stovetop batches today with one unmodified and one touched up with gypsum and epsom salt to get my sulfates up to about 200ppm and leaving my Cl at 55ppm.

My regular RA is also more suited to beers in the 12 SRM area so I had to reduce that a bit too. I'm really looking forward to seeing if we can all taste the difference and more importantly that the modified water was better.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 04:25 AM   #2
ipscman
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Oakland, OR, Oregon
Posts: 108
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Hi Bobby,

Is it possible for you to post your own water data for us as well as the specifics of what you added to the test brew?

__________________
ipscman is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 05:00 AM   #3
weirdboy
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,956
Liked 428 Times on 349 Posts
Likes Given: 59

Default

^^
Yes, please. Full water profiles for both batches would help me understand what's going on.

__________________
weirdboy is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 12:15 PM   #4
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,004
Liked 966 Times on 646 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Sorry, yeah, I meant to do that.

Water Test APA #A Treated
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Bobby
Date: 10/1/2009



Size: .5 gal
Efficiency: 82.32%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 220.46 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.066 (1.045 - 1.060)
|==============================#=|
Terminal Gravity: 1.016 (1.010 - 1.015)
|============================#===|
Color: 5.62 (5.0 - 14.0)
|=========#======================|
Alcohol: 6.51% (4.5% - 6.2%)
|==========================#=====|
Bitterness: 47.2 (30.0 - 45.0)
|==========================#=====|

Ingredients:
18 oz Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
.125 oz Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
0.125 oz Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
0.25 oz Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 mash in - Liquor: 0.75 gal; Strike: 160.05 °F; Target: 154.0 °F
00:04:00 mashout - Water: 0.25 gal; Temperature: 166.7 °F; Target: 157.0 °F
00:04:00 Strain - Untitled Sparge: -0.13 gal sparge @ 168.0 °F, 0.0 min; Total Runoff: 0.75 gal

Notes
Batch A mash was modified with .8g Gypsum and .3g MgSO4 Epsom Salt.

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Alkalinity
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) (CaCO3 ppm)
94 20 28 53 213 60
50-150 10-30 0-150 0-250 50-350 See RA below

Residual Best for Chloride to Best for
Alkalinity this color Sulfate Ratio this style
-19 4 to 8 SRM 0.25 Very Bitter

Mash varied between 148 and 151 for an hour, then a 10 minute ramp up to 160F.

Sample A was 11brix preboil, B 10.5 brix.


Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.3


Water Test APA #B Untreated
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Bobby
Date: 10/1/2009



Size: .5 gal
Efficiency: 71.09%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 189.88 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.057 (1.045 - 1.060)
|====================#===========|
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.010 - 1.015)
|=====================#==========|
Color: 5.62 (5.0 - 14.0)
|=========#======================|
Alcohol: 5.61% (4.5% - 6.2%)
|==================#=============|
Bitterness: 47.2 (30.0 - 45.0)
|==========================#=====|

Ingredients:
18 oz Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
.125 oz Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
0.125 oz Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
0.25 oz Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 mash in - Liquor: 0.75 gal; Strike: 160.05 °F; Target: 154.0 °F
00:04:00 mashout - Water: 0.25 gal; Temperature: 166.7 °F; Target: 157.0 °F
00:04:00 Strain - Untitled Sparge: -0.13 gal sparge @ 168.0 °F, 0.0 min; Total Runoff: 0.75 gal

Notes
Batch A mash was modified with .8g Gypsum and .3g NaCO4 Epsom Salt.

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Alkalinity
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) (CaCO3 ppm)
94 20 28 53 213 60
50-150 10-30 0-150 0-250 50-350 See RA below

Residual Best for Chloride to Best for
Alkalinity this color Sulfate Ratio this style
-19 4 to 8 SRM 0.25 Very Bitter

Mash varied between 148 and 151 for an hour, then a 10 minute ramp up to 160F.

Additional .3g Gypsum and .1g Epsom Salt added to Batch A boil.


Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.3

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?

Last edited by Bobby_M; 10-02-2009 at 12:48 PM.
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 12:29 PM   #5
Zen_Brew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,921
Liked 22 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Looking forward to the report. This water modification stuff can become mind numbing. I've got really light water in Seattle so I don't really have much of a choice once I move outside very light beers. I haven't had the opportunity to do any comparisons, but I know the first IPA I modded water on immediately tasted exponentially better than the ones I had done previously.

__________________
Primary: German Hef, Belgian IPA, Scottish 80, Belgian Dubbel
On Tap: Oatmeal Stout, Vanilla Oatmeal Stout, Belgian Dark Strong, Munich Dunkel, Dunkel Weizen, Oktoberfest, Bock, IPA, Black IPA, English IPA, Pale Ale

Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Using your senses to look for reality is awareness.

"One time I was so desperate for a beer I snuck into the football stadium and ate the dirt under the bleachers." Homer Simpson

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hoppiness
Zen_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 12:35 PM   #6
dfohio
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 237
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

What caused the drop in efficiency on Batch B? The untreated RA?

__________________
dfohio is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 12:45 PM   #7
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

Quote:
Batch A mash was modified with .8g Gypsum and .3g NaCO4 Epsom Salt.
Prob just a typo but Epsom is MgSO4.

Will be very interested in the results!
__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 12:54 PM   #8
conpewter
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
conpewter's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: East Dundee, Illinois
Posts: 5,109
Liked 41 Times on 36 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

Looks cool! I have very high chloride so I tend to dilute and then add back in gypsum, for sulfate/chloride ratio as well as RA issues. It really seems to have helped my IPAs

__________________

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." - V

Primary: Nothin
Secondary: Shady Lord RIS, Water to Barleywine, Pumpkin wine, burnt mead
Kegged: Crappy infected mild
Bottles: Apfelwein, 999 Barleywine, Oatmeal Stout, Robust Porter, Robust smoked porter, Simcoe Smash

conpewter is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 12:55 PM   #9
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,004
Liked 966 Times on 646 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Thanks, you're right. Typo. Ok, now that I'm at work I have a second to post more..

The water mods according to TH's spreadsheet:

Starting Water:
Ca: 30 ppm
Mg: 10 ppm
Na: 28 ppm
Cl: 53 ppm
SO4: 15 ppm
HCO3: 73 ppm
RA: 33 (8 to 13 SRM)
Cl to SO4: 3.53 (Very Malty)


Mash Vol: 0.75 gal
Dilution Rate: 0%

Mash Adjustments:

CaSO4: 0.8 grams
MgSO4: 0.3 grams
Vol: 0.75 gal

Boil Adjustments:
CaSO4: 0.3 grams
MgSO4: 0.1 grams

Results:
Ca: 94 ppm
Mg: 20 ppm
Na: 28 ppm
Cl: 53 ppm
SO4: 213 ppm
CaCO3: 60 ppm

RA: -19 (4 to 8 SRM)
Cl to SO4: 0.25 (Very Bitter)

The difference in efficiency is really baffling. Just to make sure people don't start attributing to all kinds of other things, here's what I did.

Crushed each batch's grain one at a time. In other words, I didn't crush 36 oz and try to split it up from there. That could have resulted in different amounts of husk/flour so I avoided it.

The mash vessels were 1g milk jugs with the tops cut off. Both sat in a hot water bath inside a cooler to keep the mash temps consistent.

The strike water was derived from the same pot, measure in a measuring cup, then poured into the grain.

Salts were added directly to the sample A mash.

I dumped each batch into pots to heat to mash out temps and I checked to make sure the temps were rising equally up to about 160. I also added another quart each to the mash to make up for absorption. Then dumped the mash into a strainer and let drain for 5 minutes each.

I did test the mash pH but I unfortunately only have the colorpHast 5-10 range and both appeared to be the same pH (around 5.4).

The boil off between the two pots was identical. I used the same exact 1 gallon jug fermenters and the levels are the same.

Seriously though, I'm baffled. Could it really be sample A's in-range calcium level that boosted 10% efficiency?

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?

Last edited by Bobby_M; 10-02-2009 at 05:00 PM.
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-02-2009, 03:50 PM   #10
Saccharomyces
Be good to your yeast...
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Saccharomyces's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Pflugerville, Texas
Posts: 5,444
Liked 80 Times on 52 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Awesome! Looking forward to results of a blind tasting.

__________________
[How to Calculate Mash Efficiency | Do I Need a Yeast Starter? | My Ghetto Fermentation Chamber | Twitter | 6 Gal. HDPE Fermenters | Slanting Yeast | No Sparge Brewing]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soperbrew
big brother only monitors facebook and untappd
Saccharomyces is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do lines run through the center wall of a side by side? jtvinny Bottling/Kegging 5 03-23-2011 10:50 PM
Side-by-Side to Fermentation Chamber Build Boerderij_Kabouter DIY Projects 90 02-28-2011 06:36 PM
Side by Side Fridge/Freezer Combo for Fermentation and Distribution? Craig Equipment/Sanitation 3 09-21-2009 06:16 PM
First partial mash side by side taste test. brian_g All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 1 06-23-2009 12:48 PM
Dry or liquid yeast? Who has done side by side ferments?? B-Dub Recipes/Ingredients 1 08-25-2008 02:33 PM