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Old 01-19-2014, 09:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
This whole thread feels dirty to me. The whole country is littered with gas supply sources and if you look hard enough, you'll find fills for around $1 a pound if you start with a 20lb or larger tank. This stuff reminds me of the threads where people were dead set on recovering their fermentation CO2 for use in kegging later.

Find your address in google maps and click "search nearby" and try things like welding supply, beverage supply, fire safety, fire extinguisher.
I agree, in a town that takes 2 hours to drive across I would expect more than one gas supplier
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:49 PM   #52
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I agree, in a town that takes 2 hours to drive across I would expect more than one gas supplier
You can agree, I suppose, but you would be wrong. Curious that you would make such a comment as if you had some authority. There is one home brew shop that refills on-site, that takes me 40 minutes to get to and they are terrible about keeping co2 in stock, charge more, and half the time can't even get your tank to take 5 pounds even if you freeze it. There are quite a few gas/welding/fire suppliers. They are all located in the same industrial section of town that takes 20 minutes to get to on a Sunday, but they aren't open on Sundays. So instead it takes an hour because traffic is horrible. Then you have the miles on the car, my time lost at work, the gas, and the overall frustration of traffic. If you add it up, getting CO2 at one of these places during the week costs me at least $300, requires planning such that usually I can't do it for at least a few days or even a week, and it is always an aggravating experience.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:53 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
That's easy. It's forming corrosive carbonic acid.

I see as a bottom line here that you are getting 5 lbs of CO2 for $7. Why not buy a 50# siphon for less than $1 a pound?
A #50 pound tank and a siphon setup? The whole idea here was to make my life easier, and that is not it. It's not like I'm using #5 a week or something.

You may be correct about carbonic acid, but do you actually know this? Certainly you get carbonic acid, a weak acid, when you dissolve a small amount of gaseous co2 at atmospheric pressure into a large amount of water. But this is very different. We are talking about a very small amount of water into a large amount of liquid co2 at 800psi. The chemistry is likely very different. I would be curious to hear what an actual chemist says about this. If the carbonic acid does form and is able to dissolve some iron, it would be a self limited process since there is no additional source of negative ions necessary to keep the fe in solution. But is iron even capable of being held in a solution with liquid co2 as the solvent?
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:48 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
You can agree, I suppose, but you would be wrong. Curious that you would make such a comment as if you had some authority. There is one home brew shop that refills on-site, that takes me 40 minutes to get to and they are terrible about keeping co2 in stock, charge more, and half the time can't even get your tank to take 5 pounds even if you freeze it. There are quite a few gas/welding/fire suppliers. They are all located in the same industrial section of town that takes 20 minutes to get to on a Sunday, but they aren't open on Sundays. So instead it takes an hour because traffic is horrible. Then you have the miles on the car, my time lost at work, the gas, and the overall frustration of traffic. If you add it up, getting CO2 at one of these places during the week costs me at least $300, requires planning such that usually I can't do it for at least a few days or even a week, and it is always an aggravating experience.
So there is another place you just don't want to use it. Just out of curiousity how much are they charging for CO2 at the LHBS and do they charge you for 5# even though you don't get 5#?
Have you considered picking up anyther 5# tank (or even a 10/20#) so you have a buffer to organise to get it filled.

I was not saying that you were wrong just that I would expect that someone would of taken the oportunity to grab all those customers on your side of town who have to drive a 2 hour round trip to get gas bottles. I know a lot would probably have them delivered/picked up - in that case is there any chance you can drop it off somehwere closer that gets delivered to regularly.
Hell - even if they only swapped gas bottles all they would need is a secure place to store them... maybe ask if your LHBS would consider holding a few tanks for swap?
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:35 PM   #55
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The chemistry is likely very different. I would be curious to hear what an actual chemist says about this.
You got it and dismissed it. AJ is a chemist.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:34 PM   #56
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You got it and dismissed it. AJ is a chemist.
I can't get YouTube at work but a google search had this hit on the fisrt page

http://www.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3...59568121,d.aGc

And here is a whole paper discussing the corrosion of carbon steel in high pressure CO2/water enviroments
http://www.corrosioncenter.ohiou.edu...tions/8253.pdf
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:32 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
A #50 pound tank and a siphon setup? The whole idea here was to make my life easier, and that is not it. It's not like I'm using #5 a week or something.
I suppose it depends on your definition of simple. To me connecting one end of a cryo tube to the siphon bottle and the other to the bottle that is being filled and opening the valves is appreciably easier than taking the valve out of the bottle and stuffing in dry ice. If I thought doing the latter were simpler I would do that. I don't look for extra work. Not to mention assured corrosion of the interior of the tank if it is steel. Perhaps aluminum tanks are more resistant. Even when refilling properly (from a liquid source) one is advised to purge the line of air and to never store a bottle with the valve open to the air - both to prevent incursion of moisture.

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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
You may be correct about carbonic acid, but do you actually know this?
Is the pope catholic?

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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
Certainly you get carbonic acid, a weak acid, when you dissolve a small amount of gaseous co2 at atmospheric pressure into a large amount of water. But this is very different.
It is? Only in the sense that high CO2 pressure causes a lot more gas to dissolve, a lot more carbonic to form and a lot more hydrogen ions to be released.


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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
We are talking about a very small amount of water into a large amount of liquid co2 at 800psi.
We are talking about a bottle that is 4/5 full of liquid CO2 initially and eventually full of CO2 gas only. If any moisture condenses the chemistry is exactly the same except that the pressures are higher so more CO2 dissolves releasing more hydrogen ions to corrode the metal.

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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
The chemistry is likely very different. I would be curious to hear what an actual chemist says about this.
You can do a Google search on 'carbonic acid corrosion' or read the paper to which a link was posted above.


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Originally Posted by texaslou View Post
If the carbonic acid does form and is able to dissolve some iron, it would be a self limited process since there is no additional source of negative ions necessary to keep the fe in solution.
As long as CO2 is present it dissolves and dissociates providing bicarbonate and carbonate ions both of which are anions.

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But is iron even capable of being held in a solution with liquid co2 as the solvent?
Apparently it is but assume that it isn't. The corrosion would then be limited initially to the head space which, as noted above, becomes 100% as the liquid boils off.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:11 AM   #58
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First off, I don't think anyone should do this trick. I get it, expense, hassle, [Dallas? Houston?] traffic is crazy bad.. but we're talking about metal cans here. They get brittle at cold temps, especially when the temp happens suddenly.

Very curious to hear what a Mech-E or metallurgist has to say about that.

I'm a chemist too, and this is a really interesting "reverse chemistry" problem. Does the water get dissolved? Does the CO2 get wet?

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Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
...high CO2 pressure causes a lot more gas to dissolve, a lot more carbonic to form and a lot more hydrogen ions to be released.... We are talking about a bottle that is 4/5 full of liquid CO2 initially and eventually full of CO2 gas only. If any moisture condenses the chemistry is exactly the same except that the pressures are higher so more CO2 dissolves releasing more hydrogen ions to corrode the metal.
... As long as CO2 is present it dissolves and dissociates providing bicarbonate and carbonate ions both of which are anions. ... The corrosion would then be limited initially to the head space which, as noted above, becomes 100% as the liquid boils off.
I can't see the amount of condensed water being all that high. The Australian guy lives in a desert, no worries mate (except for that whole "inconvenient embrittled shrapnel" thing, see PS and PPS below). But let's imagine the worst case scenario for the Texan: lives in Houston, keeps his thermostat at 65 in the summer (Like my sister) and he's a mouth breather. (like me.) So in his garage liquid water is condensing inside the can before the dry ice goes inside. And let's do some crazy rounding and say it's 0.5 mL water total.

Usually acid chemistry is "ion in water" but this is more like "water in ion". The key question is chemical activity--how will it change when water is dilute in high pressure liquid CO2? Active enough to react with a stainless surface? (BTW I'm discounting Al2O3 as inert but could something weird be going on to make Al2O3 suddenly more reactive?) The simple dissociation equation is one water plus one CO2 gives one H2CO3 but more than likely a hydrate complex forms--I mean, CO2-ate. Maybe multiple 2x HCO3-(CO2)5.. Not sure. But my guess is that the activity is reduced, and that the mixture isn't measureably more oxidizing than liquid CO2.

I tried googling for some frakking info, & supercritical CO2 extraction vessles. Seems like stainless is very common for extraction. Would love to hear from some deep sea drillers though.. but I doubt rust is an issue.


PS to everyone who's done this refill method: could you set up a computer to automatically post "Well I died, probably it was the dry ice thing" unless you log in once a year to snooze it? I suggest to you that the stress & strain of sudden cooling is additive, meaning it gets worse the more you do it. First few time could work fine, then... well, it only takes the one time for it to fail.

PPS That reminds me, one more request: don't let it come to pressure in the presence of mammals. Ensure there's one or more stone walls between mammals and the bomb, I mean tank, once you close the lid. ... I don't care about birds, fish, insects--we have lots of those, and besides they're often fast and nimble enough to be OK and they look at you with those emotionless little eyes. Bleh. But mammals deserve a stone wall layer, at least. Especially mammals you love. Thanks
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:03 PM   #59
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There are now two of you arguing either that water isn't soluble in CO2 liquid or that the chemistry isn't the same when CO2 is the solvent and water the solute. I don't doubt the latter and even the paper cited in the previous post indicates that water isn't very soluble in CO2. Let's accept that. The remaining problem that I see it is that bottle is never full of liquid and is, eventually, though still under substantial CO2 pressure, completely devoid of liquid. Any water that condenses (and I grant you that will be less in Alice Springs than in the rain forrest) will condense on bare steel while under a partial pressure of CO2 of 50 bar or so. Common sense says that if enough hydrogen ion is released at 0.0003 bar to dissolve limestone enough may very well be released at 50 bar to dissolve some steel (though we do note that the fugacity coefficient does start to roll off above about 10 bar.

And yes, carbon dioxide does form a hydrate. The usual Henry coefficient of about 10^-1.41 expresses the relationship between PaCO2 and concentration of H2CO3* with the star indicating the sum of hydrated CO2 and carbonic acid. Most is in the dissolved form. The equilibrium constant for CO2(aq) <--> H2CO3 is a approximately 1/600 (IOW there are about 600 molecules of CO2(aq) for every molecule of carbonic acid. Similarly the equilibrium constant of 10^-6.28 is for the reaction H2CO3* <--> H+ + HCO3- though many books do not make this clear. Using the usual Henry coefficient and usual first dissociation coefficient you do not need to consider the existence of CO2(aq). It is accounted for in their values.

More to the point: if you do a bit of a search on the subject you will find many references to the fact that carbonic acid solutions are corrosive. In many of these it is noted that formation of FeCO3 can protect the steel to some extent.

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Old 02-01-2014, 03:26 PM   #60
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Default Refilling CO2 Tanks with Dry Ice?

Wow. How did I miss this thread the first time around? I'll never understand why some home brewers are just downright cheap. I mean we all want to spend our money wisely but this is just flat out ridiculous and dangerous. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done. The Darwin Awards are regularly stocked with stories of similar penny wise pound foolish ventures.


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