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Old 04-26-2011, 01:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coryforsenate View Post
The big daddy is ergosterol biosynthesis, which has multiple enzymatic steps that require oxygen.
Bingo bango, exactly what I wanted. Real data.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:23 AM   #22
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Not sure how a 1 sentence answer is data. Seems like all you were looking for was a fancy sounding response to oxygenation concerns.

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Old 04-26-2011, 04:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by theredben View Post
Not sure how a 1 sentence answer is data. Seems like all you were looking for was a fancy sounding response to oxygenation concerns.
Wow, really? What's with the hostility?

Sounds like you need to learn to be a Berean. Throw that phrase into google and prepare to be overwhelmed with actual facts of why oxygen is needed.

Acutally, here, ill do the work for you:
http://www.wikipathways.org/index.php/Pathway:WP343
Please look at the sections where O2 is required for a reaction.

Then, go look at what Ergosterol does and what it is for. It does for fungus what cholesterol does for humans. It allows for proper permeability of cellular membranes.

That "fancy sounding response" allowed me to actually learn something useful and factual, rather than just a bunch of well written and sourceless press releases.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:06 AM   #24
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Glad I could help, timbudtwo.

To all, RDWHAHB!

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Old 04-27-2011, 12:25 AM   #25
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My point was that in a forum labelled "Brew Science" it should be required to give more than just a sentence to respond to statements made. While I understand that oxygen is literally required for yeast growth, what I question is the amounts required to make good beer. Remember that we are brewing beer here, not looking for optimal yeast growth.

I am not interested in biological pathways, I am interested in fermentation in homebrew situations.

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Old 04-27-2011, 12:32 AM   #26
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Yeast make beer. You are merely the landlord.

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Old 04-27-2011, 02:46 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reelale View Post
Yeast make beer. You are merely the landlord.
nice
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theredben View Post
I am not interested in biological pathways, I am interested in fermentation in homebrew situations.
For the most part, that has been relatively well covered. The general consensus is "it will be different for every batch of brew."

I was trying to figure out whether or not it was super necessary. A lot of the time you find information that says to do one thing or the other. Don't use aluminum pots = total bs. Don't squeeze the grain bag = total bs. People say you MUST oxygenate your wort, well why?

I now know the reason for oxygen addition, and I have proof that chemicals necessary for the reproduction of yeast cells are produced aerobically. None of this hear-say old wives tale crap.

I get tired of anecdotal evidence. Good for cuts and scrapes, but for something that I want to get better at I prefer hard facts.
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbudtwo View Post

I get tired of anecdotal evidence....
I completely get where you are coming from. Its just when writing to a forum, what may seem witty or "to the point" on one end can look hostile on the other.
Generally the discussions on this forum have been congenial even when heated.
(emoticons help)

One of the biggest problems that the homebrewer faces is trying to translate not only purely biochemical data (which doesn't always translate to real life as expected) AND deal with commercial brewing data (which doesn't always scale properly to the homebrew environment - eg Hot Sided Aeration) AND deal with the great weight of completely unfounded brewing tradition.

The best part of the "Brewing Science" subforum has been the willingness of a number of participants to actually write up properly controlled experiments that showed real results at the scale that we were interested in.

So who wants to step up and run a 5gallon oxygenation trial?
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:36 PM   #30
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It's been done. Pretty tightly controlled experiment.

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Originally Posted by Reelale View Post
Here's some more info that I posted in an earlier thread that uses actual flow rates. I found it quite interesting.

Interesting discussion of wort oxygenation techniques

Saw this on hbd.org and thought some would be interested in it here. I couldn't link directly to the discussion, but if you go here it can be found http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi.

This post is in response to some recent discussions regarding oxygenation levels in wort.
We (Wyeast) recommend 8-15 ppm O2 for healthy fermentations. Some strains require higher oxygen levels than others. Manipulation of pitch rates can increase or reduce the need for oxygen levels. High pitch rates lead to fewer doublings and reduce the need for high levels of sterols. Sterol levels are typically the limiting factor in cell growth. These cellular membrane components are synthesized by the cells using oxygen during the lag phase and assist in keeping the membrane flexible and permeable. Low pitching rates lead to an increase in cell growth (doublings) requiring higher levels of sterols and oxygen.

Last year I ran an experiment comparing homebrew oxygenation methods. The experiment compared dissolved oxygenation levels achieved vs. time for homebrew oxygenation methods including splashing and shaking, siphon spray, aquarium pump, and pure oxygen. I presented the results at the NHC last year in Vegas.

Methods Compared:
Splashing and Shaking- Traditional homebrew aeration method of picking up the carboy and shaking it.
Siphon Spray - Small attachment to your run-in hose that splashes the wort as it enters the fermenter.
Aquarium Pump and Stone- Running compressed air from an aquarium pump through a 2 micron stone (Oxynater).
Pure Oxygen- Running Oxygen through a 2 micron stone (Oxynater) at a flow rate of 3.5 LPM.
The same wort and temperature was used for all methods. Dissolved oxygen levels were measures at 5 second intervals using a DO meter.
OG- 1.045
Temp- 68 F
Volume- 5 gal
Fermenter- Standard 5 gal glass carboy
Stone pore size- 2 micron (Liquid Bread Oxynater)
Oxygen Supply- Bernzomatic
Oxygen flow rate with Bernzomatic was estimated at 3.5 LPM based on a visual comparison of stone activities (vigor of bubbles) with a regulator with gauges on a larger cylinder.

Results:
Siphon Spray: Delivered 4 ppm in wort transfer.
Splashing and Shaking: Reached saturation point of 8 ppm in 40 seconds.
Aquarium Pump and Stone: Reached 8 ppm in 5 minutes.
Pure Oxygen with Stone: 8 ppm (20 seconds), 15 ppm (80 seconds), 22 ppm (2 minutes)

Comments:
There are a lot of variables involved with dissolving oxygen into solution including wort gravity, wort temperature, stone pore size and surface area, O2 flow rate, time, turbulence of wort, and fermenter geometry. This experiment attempted to reduce the number of variables. Oxygenation of a large amount of liquid with a small stone is not an efficient way to dissolve O2 into solution, but in most homebrew cases it is the only method available. Oxygenation in-line (professional method) increases surface area and contact time and increases the efficiency of dissolving O2.
That being said, this experiment demonstrated that using an aquarium pump with a stone is not an efficient way to deliver oxygen into wort. Splashing and shaking was rather efficient (40 sec.) in achieving O2 saturation point with air. Pure oxygen is an easy method that not only allows brewers more efficiency and better control over DO levels but also allows brewers to attain higher levels of DO versus using air.

As a side note, I currently use a combination of two methods. I inject a small amount of O2 and then shake my carboy to fully dissolve it into solution. I have not run any tests with this method but am confident that I am achieving good levels of DO.

I hope that this helps. If you want any additional information or a chart on oxygenation levels vs. time using O2, please email me at labservices@wyeastlab.com

Thanks,
Greg
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