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Old 01-02-2014, 08:10 PM   #1
maplemontbrew
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Default In process Ph numbers and how to adjust

Here are the ph readings from last batch of Hefeweizen using:
#5 white wheat
#4 German Pilsner
#.25 Caramel 20
#.25 German munich
1 oz. Hallertau

My Ph readings at room temp. are as follows:
Starting water 7.45 Ph
Dough in 6
Mash 5.9
After sparge 6.25
After boil 6 Ph & OG 1.042

I am assuming I need to use lactic acid to get the Ph down in the mash and sparge water but have no idea how much or the process for adding it. Will the amount of lactic acid be different for the mash and the sparge?

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:58 PM   #2
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Water pH doesn't matter much but was does matter is its alkalinity. Do you have that number? For your pH to go that high it must be appreciable. You will have to overcome it. One way to do that is to dribble acid (lactic is fine) into entire volume of brewing water until the pH reaches the desired mash pH (5.4 - 5.5). If you overshoot and add too much acid then just add more water until you get back up to the desired range. You may still need a bit of acid to overcome malt alkalinity. Best thing to do is make a mini test mash and scale the amount of acid you use to the fisrrs.

If you have to use a whole lot of acid to overcome water alkalinity then you should find another way to combat it such as dilution with RO, removal by boiling or removal by lime treatment

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Old 01-02-2014, 09:37 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
Water pH doesn't matter much but was does matter is its alkalinity. Do you have that number? For your pH to go that high it must be appreciable. You will have to overcome it. One way to do that is to dribble acid (lactic is fine) into entire volume of brewing water until the pH reaches the desired mash pH (5.4 - 5.5). If you overshoot and add too much acid then just add more water until you get back up to the desired range. You may still need a bit of acid to overcome malt alkalinity. Best thing to do is make a mini test mash and scale the amount of acid you use to the fisrrs.

If you have to use a whole lot of acid to overcome water alkalinity then you should find another way to combat it such as dilution with RO, removal by boiling or removal by lime treatment


Total alkalinity number is 110

Bicarbonate alkalinity 0148 (from water co. report)
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:38 PM   #4
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I did not no I could treat all the hlt water before I started the mash. This should make things way easier for me. I realize the grain will change it some. But I am stoked on this new discovery

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Old 01-02-2014, 11:51 PM   #5
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I use Bru'nWater spreadsheet to calculate water additions, including lactic for pH.

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Old 01-03-2014, 12:30 AM   #6
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Enter the first chart below with your water pH and alkalinity. The 7.45 and 110 lines intersect between the 2 and 2.5 lines at about 2.3. This is your carbo per liter. Now look at the second chart and read off the charge at 7.45 ( about - 0.9 ) and at the mash pH you want - 5.4 gives - 0.1. The difference, 0.8, multiplied by the carbo, 0.8 * 2.3 = 1.84 is the amount of acid you need to add to each liter to get your water to pH 5.4. 1 L of lactic acid weighs 1206 grams and contains 1206/90.08 = 13.38 moles. Lactic acid is strong enough that at pH 5.4 it is almost completely dissociated thus it is 13.4 N and 1 mL yields 13.4 mEq protons. For 5 gallons, 19L, you need a total of 19*1.84 = 35 mEq and at 13.4 per mL thats 35/13.4 = 2.6 mL. That's all there is to it.

If you had a chart similar to the second you can do the same to calculate the amount of acid you need for the base malt. As you don't the best you can do is WAG that at about 35 mEq/pH-kg. Subtract the desired pH from the DI mash ph of the malt and multiply by 35 e.g. if the malt has a DI mash pH of 5.7 and you want to mash at 5.4 you will need about 35*(5.7 - 5.4) = 10.5 mEq/kg of malt. This is pretty rough and why we do test mashes and use pH meters.

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Old 01-03-2014, 12:52 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
Enter the first chart below with your water pH and alkalinity. The 7.45 and 110 lines intersect between the 2 and 2.5 lines at about 2.3. This is your carbo per liter. Now look at the second chart and read off the charge at 7.45 ( about - 0.9 ) and at the mash pH you want - 5.4 gives - 0.1. The difference, 0.8, multiplied by the carbo, 0.8 * 2.3 = 1.84 is the amount of acid you need to add to each liter to get your water to pH 5.4. 1 L of lactic acid weighs 1206 grams and contains 1206/90.08 = 13.38 moles. Lactic acid is strong enough that at pH 5.4 it is almost completely dissociated thus it is 13.4 N and 1 mL yields 13.4 mEq protons. For 5 gallons, 19L, you need a total of 19*1.84 = 35 mEq and at 13.4 per mL thats 35/13.4 = 2.6 mL. That's all there is to it.

If you had a chart similar to the second you can do the same to calculate the amount of acid you need for the base malt. As you don't the best you can do is WAG that at about 35 mEq/pH-kg. Subtract the desired pH from the DI mash ph of the malt and multiply by 35 e.g. if the malt has a DI mash pH of 5.7 and you want to mash at 5.4 you will need about 35*(5.7 - 5.4) = 10.5 mEq/kg of malt. This is pretty rough and why we do test mashes and use pH meters.

May need a few days to digest that but thanks for the help!
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:03 PM   #8
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Default In process Ph numbers and how to adjust

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
Enter the first chart below with your water pH and alkalinity. The 7.45 and 110 lines intersect between the 2 and 2.5 lines at about 2.3. This is your carbo per liter. Now look at the second chart and read off the charge at 7.45 ( about - 0.9 ) and at the mash pH you want - 5.4 gives - 0.1. The difference, 0.8, multiplied by the carbo, 0.8 * 2.3 = 1.84 is the amount of acid you need to add to each liter to get your water to pH 5.4. 1 L of lactic acid weighs 1206 grams and contains 1206/90.08 = 13.38 moles. Lactic acid is strong enough that at pH 5.4 it is almost completely dissociated thus it is 13.4 N and 1 mL yields 13.4 mEq protons. For 5 gallons, 19L, you need a total of 19*1.84 = 35 mEq and at 13.4 per mL thats 35/13.4 = 2.6 mL. That's all there is to it.



If you had a chart similar to the second you can do the same to calculate the amount of acid you need for the base malt. As you don't the best you can do is WAG that at about 35 mEq/pH-kg. Subtract the desired pH from the DI mash ph of the malt and multiply by 35 e.g. if the malt has a DI mash pH of 5.7 and you want to mash at 5.4 you will need about 35*(5.7 - 5.4) = 10.5 mEq/kg of malt. This is pretty rough and why we do test mashes and use pH meters.


If I treat all of my brew water with Lactic effectively lowering the Ph to 5.4, won't the mash Ph be well below the 5.4 I am looking for. My water starts at 7.45 and winds up being 5.9 - 6.1 during mash.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:09 PM   #9
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No. We can guess at what your pH would be, even though we don't know anything about the actual malts and wheat you are using other than their most general descriptions. The estimate I get is 5.8 which isn't too far off your 5.9 - 6 observation. Let's look at what it would take to get to pH 5.4. We discussed what you would have to do to get the water to pH 5.4. The numbers I gave were for 5 gal. Assuming you mash the grains you specified with 4 it would take 4/5 the 35 mEq I got in #6 i.e. right around 30 mEq (this from a calculation rather than eyeballing off the charts). It would take another 35 to get the wheat and 18 to get the pils to pH 5.4 (using the assumptions I did for those grains) and the dark malts, being present in such small amounts, would only contribute 1.9. So you have a proton deficit of 74.6 mEq WRT pH 5.4. WRT mash pH 5.5 the deficit is 56.5, WRT to 5.6 it is 39.3. And you would need those amounts of acid to get to those pH values. WRT pH 5.8 the deficit is 0 - that's the pH you would get if you added no acid.

The bottom line here is that you need as much acid for the water as you do for the grains. That's the consequence of brewing with high alkalinity water. Were you using RO water (effectively 0 alkalinity) you would only need 27 mEq of acid (about 2 mL) for the grain - none for the water.

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Old 01-03-2014, 06:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cluckk View Post
I use Bru'nWater spreadsheet to calculate water additions, including lactic for pH.
Have you tried any other spreadsheets with which to compare Bru'nWater. I looked at this and sounds pretty good.
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