Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Ph and dark grains
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-18-2013, 03:54 PM   #1
orangemen5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default Ph and dark grains

M brewing a porter with a lot of crystal and roasted malt. I've been using brewing water to get a ball park estimate of my mash ph. I can usually get my light beers in range with a little acidulated malt. But have trouble with dark beers. My grist is as follows.
11lbs 2 row
1 lb crystal 120
1.5 lbs brown malt (65)
.5 lbs crystal 40
1.25lbs choclate malt (350)
2.25 lbs munich (10)

My water is as follows.
Calcium 36
Sulfate 20
Sodium 11
Magnesium 9
Chloride 22
Alkalinity 97

Bru n water predicts a mash ph of 5.0. I would like to get it in the range of 5.3-5.4. I don't have any pickling lime. But was thinking of using 2-3 tsp of baking soda since my sodium isn't really high to start with. Or would I be better off a ding the roasted grains late in the mash. I could steep the grains I guess but it's more added work. What do you think.

__________________
orangemen5 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2013, 04:21 PM   #2
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,914
Liked 580 Times on 480 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Do you have a pH meter or are you working in the blind? If you have a meter then a test mash is the best way to go. Baking soda is fine for adding alkalinity if required as long as you don't over do it (sodium concern which you have cited).

Adding roast grains later is highly recommended by some including Gordon Strong. They certainly won't effect your dough in pH if you do that but they will still add acid. The goal is to get mash pH correct and then rely on the fact that if you do pH will usually track throughout the rest of the process. Still, some brewers add acid to the kettle. So getting mash pH correct w/o the dark grains and then adding them later may be a good thing to do from the kettle pH POV too but I'd want to check that with a meter.

__________________
ajdelange is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2013, 06:53 PM   #3
pjj2ba
Look under the recliner
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
pjj2ba's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,427
Liked 195 Times on 161 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

I like to wait to add roasted malts until the end of my mash is complete so they don't mess up the pH. It is a very simple way to deal with the problem.

__________________
On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer
(1st NYC 2011, 2nd NYC 2012)
P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition
pjj2ba is offline
dannysk Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2013, 07:57 PM   #4
orangemen5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

Unfortunately I don't have a ph meter. Just going by bru n waters prediction. Which from what I've read is pretty accurate. I think I'll add the rest of the grains at the end of the mash so they don't lower the ph too low. When would be a good time to add them. I'm thinking 15-20 min from the end of the mash.

__________________
orangemen5 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2013, 08:58 PM   #5
pjj2ba
Look under the recliner
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
pjj2ba's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,427
Liked 195 Times on 161 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

I do a mash out, so I add them just before I start to ramp up the temperature. Probably extract for 10 min tops before I start to sparge (batch)

Another alternative is to steep the roast malts in cold water and then add that when the mash is finished. I'm not sure how long a step, you'll have to check around, but I think some folks even do overnight

__________________
On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer
(1st NYC 2011, 2nd NYC 2012)
P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition
pjj2ba is offline
eschwaa31 Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2013, 09:51 PM   #6
JJL
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: , WI
Posts: 1,279
Liked 30 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjj2ba View Post
I do a mash out, so I add them just before I start to ramp up the temperature. Probably extract for 10 min tops before I start to sparge (batch)

Another alternative is to steep the roast malts in cold water and then add that when the mash is finished. I'm not sure how long a step, you'll have to check around, but I think some folks even do overnight
Roughly 24 hours is the recommendation I've seen for cold steeping. I've done it a couple of times when I was just experimenting. It does seem to really cut down on the acrid flavors you get from some dark grains. I get more of a roasty flavor and less bitterness.
__________________
JJL is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #7
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,712
Liked 184 Times on 161 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Keeping the roast and crystal malts out of the main mash is a viable way to keep the mash pH from falling too low. However, it is a stop-gap approach since when the roast and crystal are eventually added, the pH of the wort you send to the kettle will be lower than desired.

Keeping the mash pH in the right range improves the enzymatic action. However when the kettle wort pH is very low, the hop expression and bittering extraction are reduced and the beer can end up tasting tart. The work-around method of delaying the roast and crystal additions is NOT a cure-all. Sometimes alkalinity is necessary.

__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2013, 06:32 PM   #8
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,914
Liked 580 Times on 480 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

But, OTOH, as I pointed out in #2, some brewers set correct mash pH and then acidify further in the kettle so there may be some cases where this is actually the wise thing to do. But, as I also said earlier, I'd want to be sure with pH meter readings.

__________________
ajdelange is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2013, 03:56 PM   #9
pjj2ba
Look under the recliner
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
pjj2ba's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,427
Liked 195 Times on 161 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
Keeping the roast and crystal malts out of the main mash is a viable way to keep the mash pH from falling too low. However, it is a stop-gap approach since when the roast and crystal are eventually added, the pH of the wort you send to the kettle will be lower than desired.

Keeping the mash pH in the right range improves the enzymatic action. However when the kettle wort pH is very low, the hop expression and bittering extraction are reduced and the beer can end up tasting tart. The work-around method of delaying the roast and crystal additions is NOT a cure-all. Sometimes alkalinity is necessary.
In the interests of full disclosure, I do more than I posted above. I don't brew many dark beers (I like them, but there are too many others to brew!) so I am really dialed in with my water for lighter beers. I actually have good water for dark beers, but since I've got the light stuff dialed in, I go with that water/mash routine and add the dark grains at the end of the mash. HOWEVER, I treat my water with pickling lime to reduce my carbonates, so when I do brew a dark beer, I also add back in the boil kettle the carbonates that I earlier precipitated out to minimize the affects of the roast malts in the boil kettle. Certainly not for everyone, but it works for me
__________________
On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer
(1st NYC 2011, 2nd NYC 2012)
P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition
pjj2ba is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2013, 01:32 AM   #10
orangemen5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

So it baking soda an acceptable way to add alkalinity or does it not dissolve well. pickling lime is probably better but Baking soda is readily available. I'm assuming if I keep sodium under 50ppm I should be ok. It seems the easiest way to add alkalinity.

__________________
orangemen5 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Steeping dark grains nattron All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 06-06-2013 12:15 AM
Dark specialty grains kerant All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 02-14-2012 04:04 PM
How fermentable are dark grains? ayoungrad Recipes/Ingredients 2 11-05-2011 12:25 PM
Dark grains = stout? GatorBeer Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 11-07-2010 02:27 PM
Dark grains on top to aid lautering? Baron von BeeGee All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 10-19-2005 03:22 PM