Electric Brewing Supply 30A BCS Giveaway - Last Chance to Enter!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Odds on the John Palmer and Colin Kaminsky "Water" book...
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-14-2013, 12:18 PM   #31
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,170
Liked 620 Times on 513 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Yes, you are missing a small difference. Sauermalz is a specialty grain. As such it is more than an source of acid but also a source of nuanced flavor enhancement when used in the light - medium lagers where it finds most use. Some people like this and others don't even notice it. So there is, as with so many things in brewing, a matter of personal preference with respect to whether you want these flavors or not. Then there is also a matter of personal preference with respect to which is easier. To use the acid option you must calculate the amount of acid required, locate the bottle of acid, find a graduated cyiinder, measure out the acid, add it to the water, rinse the cylinder, put cylinder and acid bottle away.

In my brewery the grains, certainly the specialty ones, are in stacked Vittles Vaults with the side opening. There is a drywall paste bucket on a scale into which I weigh out the specialty grains. Acidification is a matter of mentally calculating 2 or 3 % of the total weight of the grain bill (which even I can do in my head), pressing the tare button on the scale and dribbling that amount of sauermalz into the bucket. The way I am set up using acid malt is much easier - its KISS. OK, I save 5 minutes but my brew day is as 'short' as it is because I save lots of 5 minute chunks with little tricks like this. And I like the flavor effects.

Then Rheinheitsgebot: Again largely a matter of personal preference. There is certainly some appeal to some people in being able to say "This beer was made in the traditional way adhering to old German Purity laws." Great marketing. Similar to the appeal of 'green' beers, Kosher beers and so on, beers following grandpa's original pre-prohibition recipe etc. An let's be honest, we 'market' to ourselves and the people we give our beer to. But Rheinheitsgebot or any other set of strictly limiting rules as to what one may or may not do in his brewing is limiting. It is interesting that the Kohlbach paper which so much influenced John Palmer WRT RA is really an appeal to allow German brewers to use mineral acid for pH adjustment. You can read it at http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/Brewing_...lbachPaper.pdf but you'll have to read through nearly to the end.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2013, 02:00 PM   #32
SpeedYellow
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,165
Liked 119 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dermotstratton View Post
I don't understand why people would be perturbed that there is no focus on aciduated malt. Is there any difference between using aciduated malt and adding acid into mash yourself? (assuming you can accurately measure acid to the nearest 0.5 ml)...
Who's perturbed? It was merely noted as "little peculiar".

As we all know, it's just personal preferences to use liquid acids or acid malt in the mash. But acid malt has very real advantages to the homebrewer, and is quite common, so it's a little odd to mostly dismiss it, especially when bizarre solutions like mineral additions (and sulfuric acid) are suggested instead.

And just so you don't accuse me of being a reinheitsgebot fanatic, I do use lactic acid in my sparge water and force carb my beer.
__________________
SpeedYellow is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2013, 02:50 PM   #33
dermotstratton
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 143
Liked 11 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Haha, sorry I misinterpreted your comment. I did not mean to offend and not trying to call you out as a Reinheitsgebotist.

AJ, your style and KISS responses make sense, thank you for input. I did not realize aciduated malt is a speciality malt with a unique flavor and killing process. All this discussion still leaves me with two questions in my head:

Does anyone know if aciduated malt is treated with acid by maltster? If so, why is it okay for maltster to add acid to process, but not for the brewer.

Also is there a "Reinheitsgebot-way" of reducing pH in sparge water to prevent tannin extraction? Since I treat my sparge water with acid, to me, it is just as easy to add acid to mash. I appreciate the fact that "easy" is a relative term and dependent on brewer and/or his/her setup.

__________________
dermotstratton is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2013, 03:02 PM   #34
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,170
Liked 620 Times on 513 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedYellow View Post
But acid malt ... and is quite common, so it's a little odd to mostly dismiss it, especially when bizarre solutions like mineral additions (and sulfuric acid) are suggested instead.
I tend to divide brewing in my mind into German and British (pushing Belgian brewing off to the side as 'eccentric'). In German brewing the use of sauermalz and sauergut (wort fermented with lactobacillus) are very common. In British brewing the use of acid is quite common. In Germany we have, thus, implicit use of lactic acid while in the UK it tends to be hydrochloric and sulfuric.

In modern craft brewing it is becoming quite common to use phosphoric acid, because of its flavor neutral quality, to combat at least the water's proton deficit if not the base malt's.

I have to agree that I think sauermalz and techniques for using it in brewing should have gotten more attention. They do mention it for brewing Pilsner beer and even specify 2% as a typical addition but the 1% per unit of pH rule is not there and ought to be. Keep in mind, however, that one cannot think of everything when writing a book nor is there room for everything that the author thinks he might like to include. And then schedule pressure often results in some edges getting knocked off.
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2013, 03:14 PM   #35
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,170
Liked 620 Times on 513 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dermotstratton View Post
Does anyone know if aciduated malt is treated with acid by maltster? If so, why is it okay for maltster to add acid to process, but not for the brewer.
It can be made in two ways (at least). In the first malt is moistened, covered and held at about 47 °C. Lactobacilli on the husk grow and ferment some of the sugars in the malt. The malt is then dried. In the second wort is prepared, innoculated with Lactobacilli (throw in a handfull of malt) and held at 47°C. The lactos ferment the sugars in the wort which is then sprayed onto base (or other malt) and then that is dried. In either case the acid is produced by natural fermetation. Remember that Reinheitsgebot only mention Gersten, Hopfen and Wasser. Nothing about Hefe as opposed to lactos for fermentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dermotstratton View Post
Also is there a "Reinheitsgebot-way" of reducing pH in sparge water to prevent tannin extraction?
Yes, you could use sauergut. The Reinheitsgebot has now been replaced by the Biersteuergesetz and I believe that says that one can use any acid produced by natural fermentation in the brewery. As, of course, you are not required to follow either of these but may want to follow the spirit of the Reinheitsgebot I think the use of sauergut or steeping some sauermalz in the sparge water would comply. Decarbonating the water by other means and/or just monitoring pH and terminating sparge when it approaches 6 also work.
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2013, 03:19 PM   #36
dermotstratton
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 143
Liked 11 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Thanks! I did not realize you could generate the acid naturally. I suppose I side with the Brits on all this. Interesting to understand both sides, though.

__________________
dermotstratton is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water book by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski nwmarach General Beer Discussion 5 11-19-2013 01:43 AM
John Palmer's "How to Brew"...item under review BigRock947 General Beer Discussion 17 10-19-2012 02:05 AM
Determining malt quantities in John Palmer's book royale All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 01-14-2012 02:52 AM
Question on John Palmer book nasmeyer Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 5 02-25-2009 07:18 PM
New Book by Jamil Zainasheff and John J. Palmer Came In... RLinNH General Chit Chat 23 11-22-2007 11:15 PM