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Old 01-30-2013, 05:21 PM   #11
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:02 PM   #12
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Nice work Kai. I spend most of my day writing software, so let me see if I can break something.

Here's a data point for you from a brew last weekend.

Just for fun, I've entered every possible number into these sheets with their predictions:

Code:

EZ (v3.1):          5.51

Kai (sheet):        5.44

Kai (web as SRM):   5.46  (no acid malt)
Kai (web as SRM):   5.42  (acid malt as 28g 2.5% lactic acid in Acid Additions section)
Kai (web as SRM):   5.43  (acid malt as 1 oz acid malt in Acid Additions section)

Kai (web as Grist): 5.62  (no acid malt)
Kai (web as Grist): 5.57  (acid malt as 28g 2.5% lactic acid in Acid Additions section)
Kai (web as Grist): 5.56  (acid malt as 1 oz acid malt in Acid Additions section)
Kai (web as Grist): 5.56  (acid malt as 1 oz in malt bill)

Bru'n (v1.13):      5.37
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Actual @20m:        5.44
Actual @55m:        5.47
If you'd like, I can PM you with the details.

One source of potential user-error happens when grist is defined by malt bill. The "Acidulated Malt" weight box up in the "Acid Additions" section does not get dimmed/disabled, and may potentially get doubled-up if it was in there before and the user switches to malt-bill. I did that on my first go.


"Would be cool..." (sorry, I get this all time)
1. Floating/docked "Mash pH:" so you can see it no matter where you are scrolled in the page. I like to see the effect of changes without scrolling.
2. In "Salt Additions", show the approx. ppm of your addition so you can see without scrolling to "Mash Water Report". i.e. ~0.2 tsp, 13 Ca, 31 SO4
3. In "Sparge/Kettle Salt Additions", a check-box (or maybe a button) for "Match Mash Additions in ppm". Since I measure these out separately but target the same ppm (usually). This makes me tweak the kettle addition to get my same ppm Ca, for example.

Everyone's workflow is a little different so you're not going to please everyone. But overall I like it's simplicity. I've learned above ALL: if the user can find the one-in-a-million thing to screw something up, that makes NO SENSE..... they will do it.

Oh, and it told me "SO4/Cl ratio: 0.4 Too malty".... but I dislike sulfate and this makes excellent beer. OK, just teasing you now.

Good job!
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:08 PM   #13
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1. Floating/docked "Mash pH:" so you can see it no matter where you are scrolled in the page. I like to see the effect of changes without scrolling.
I agree with this.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:25 PM   #14
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I hate floaters with a passion. I find them annoying and they usually block something I'm trying to read. I'd vote, if indeed we get to vote on this, to just adding pH to places you make adjustments.

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Old 01-30-2013, 07:34 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
I hate floaters with a passion. I find them annoying and they usually block something I'm trying to read. I'd vote, if indeed we get to vote on this, to just adding pH to places you make adjustments.
Sorry I probably wasn't clear in my terminology. I agree, I hate floating pop-up windows.

It should be in a frozen pane somehow, but still in the reference of the same window and webpage.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:08 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GotPushrods View Post
Sorry I probably wasn't clear in my terminology. I agree, I hate floating pop-up windows.

It should be in a frozen pane somehow, but still in the reference of the same window and webpage.
A small pop-up window that I can move to where I want it wouldn't be bad. Anything that moves in relationship to the page annoys me. I was hoping 'mobile' would push http back to a form more like the beginning when I could use 'linx'. I don't do mobile but I hear a lot of complaints that the mobile sites annoy people even more. Simple is my preference. Put only what is needed.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:06 PM   #17
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this water chemistry stuff (ezwater, bru'n, this one) and really like the format of this one. Thanks for this resource!

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Old 01-31-2013, 02:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by GotPushrods View Post
Nice work Kai. I spend most of my day writing software, so let me see if I can break something.
Me too (well, not exactly software but it is code and I have to deal with bugs and revison control and such). That's why this project was almost like my day job.



Quote:
Code:

EZ (v3.1):          5.51

Kai (sheet):        5.44

Kai (web as SRM):   5.46  (no acid malt)
Kai (web as SRM):   5.42  (acid malt as 28g 2.5% lactic acid in Acid Additions section)
Kai (web as SRM):   5.43  (acid malt as 1 oz acid malt in Acid Additions section)

Kai (web as Grist): 5.62  (no acid malt)
Kai (web as Grist): 5.57  (acid malt as 28g 2.5% lactic acid in Acid Additions section)
Kai (web as Grist): 5.56  (acid malt as 1 oz acid malt in Acid Additions section)
Kai (web as Grist): 5.56  (acid malt as 1 oz in malt bill)

Bru'n (v1.13):      5.37
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Actual @20m:        5.44
Actual @55m:        5.47
Looks like my old spreadsheet does pretty good. But in general there seems to be both art and science to predicting mash pH. As with IBUs there are a number of formulas out there. My goal is to be within 0.1 pH units for most practical grists. As I find cases where the calculator is off I have an interest to find the assumption that was incorrect. That means making a number of small mashes.

Quote:
If you'd like, I can PM you with the details.
yes, mail me the details. I'll add that to my database of water, grist and pH info and will be able to run and compare it when I make any changes to the pH estimation formula.

Quote:
One source of potential user-error happens when grist is defined by malt bill. The "Acidulated Malt" weight box up in the "Acid Additions" section does not get dimmed/disabled, and may potentially get doubled-up if it was in there before and the user switches to malt-bill. I did that on my first go.
yes, there are 2 places to add acid malt the acid from both will be considered. That might be confusing, I agree. I think it should be simple to hide the acid malt field when the gist is entered as malt bill.


Quote:
"Would be cool..." (sorry, I get this all time)
1. Floating/docked "Mash pH:" so you can see it no matter where you are scrolled in the page. I like to see the effect of changes without scrolling.
We have thought about that. The idea of a floating report section also came up but that may create a hassle for mobile users.

Instead it may make sense to have an option that lets you see abbreviated result row below each expanded section. That row would show Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, SO4, and mash pH. I have noticed a lot of scrolling myself since most of the adjustments have to be made by trial and error.

Quote:
3. In "Sparge/Kettle Salt Additions", a check-box (or maybe a button) for "Match Mash Additions in ppm". Since I measure these out separately but target the same ppm (usually). This makes me tweak the kettle addition to get my same ppm Ca, for example.
I thought about that since this is also how I measure my salts. Though recently I have been throwing them all into the mash and used only R/O water for sparging.

I now Bru'n Water has the option to replace pH raising salts/hydroxides with ones that don't. Would that also be desired?

I put that on the list

Quote:
Oh, and it told me "SO4/Cl ratio: 0.4 Too malty".... but I dislike sulfate and this makes excellent beer. OK, just teasing you now.
The SO4/CL ratio descriptors were taken from John Palmer's spreadsheet. I don't really believe in them either but lots of people are looking for this feature.

Thanks for the feedback.

Kai
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
yes, mail me the details. I'll add that to my database of water, grist and pH info and will be able to run and compare it when I make any changes to the pH estimation formula.
You bet, doing it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
I thought about that since this is also how I measure my salts. Though recently I have been throwing them all into the mash and used only R/O water for sparging.
I still sparge with straight RO, but I add the additions (calculated for sparge volume) straight to the kettle before the 1st runnings. That's actually a feature of EZ I like -- it will calculate the equivalent weight of each salt for the sparge volume. So if I have 1 gram CaCl2 for my 4 gallon mash, and I have sparge set to 5 gallons, it shows 1.25 grams (1 * 5/4) for sparge (kettle). Quick and easy. I can still figure out the amounts on yours, it just takes a little trial and error to get it dialed in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
I now Bru'n Water has the option to replace pH raising salts/hydroxides with ones that don't. Would that also be desired?
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about so I'll have to go take a look. I can't say it's something I've ever run into though. Maybe it's for people who have come across a profile+additions and don't really know what they are doing... it helps adjust the addition they were given to be more realistic?
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:18 PM   #20
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Well, the good news is I finally tracked down a "typical" analysis of our city water on line albeit from 2011. When I plug those numbers in with my last recipe I get a difference of .03 on mash pH. Given this is a 'typical' report on reservoir water I'd say that is close enough given I'm still pretty novice with taking the actual pH readings.

The bad news is my water is a little strange. Has decent sulfate and chloride amounts already. The bad news is the calcium is deficient. Groan. So the two most popular ways to raise calcium will take some caution and taste testing on my part I guess. I just brewed so I have a few weeks with my next recipe to think about this. I do have RO water though.

Code:
pH                                            10.7
Alkalinity-Total		 43	mg/I as CaCQ3 
Chloride 		         85	mg/l
Sodium 			          47	mg/l
Calcium			          28.6	mg/l
Magnesium		            5.6	mg/l
Suflate				52        mg/l SO4
ps: What is the HCO hanging out at the right on the water profiles?
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