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-   -   Need HELP! Water Report Missing Sodium - Thoughts? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/need-help-water-report-missing-sodium-thoughts-386210/)

gavball6 01-31-2013 03:11 PM

Need HELP! Water Report Missing Sodium - Thoughts?
 
Hi all,
Just got my water report, but it lists the Sodium results as "PENDING". Not sure what to do... Is there a typical (close enough) sodium number that I can plug into the EZ water calculator? Should I ignore and leave at zero? Here are the rest of my numbers:

Calcium 47 mg/L
Magnesium 16 mg/L
Sodium ???
Chloride 148 mg/L
Sulfate 49 mg/L
Alkalinity 85 mg/L

HELP???

ajdelange 01-31-2013 03:49 PM

You should put sodium numbers into the spreadsheet until the profile balances electrically (or let the Solver do it for you if you know how to use it). That's not going to give you a spot on answer but given that all the other numbers are close and there aren't large amounts of fluoride, nitrate, nitrite, copper, iron, manganese, strontium.... in the water it will be approximately correct.

mabrungard 01-31-2013 05:49 PM

EZ doesn't provide a user with any ability to evaluate if a water profile is balanced. Without that calculation, a brewer has no idea if the water information is remotely accurate. EZ also doesn't enable the user to figure out problems like this. That's why its EZ. Ignorance is Bliss!

Using Bru'n Water and an assumption that the other ion concentrations are correct and any non-reported ion concentrations (besides Na) are low, it appears that the sodium concentration may be around 75 ppm.

GotPushrods 01-31-2013 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabrungard (Post 4848945)
EZ also doesn't enable the user to figure out problems like this. That's why its EZ. Ignorance is Bliss!

I know you both have donation links in your sheets, but it doesn't have to be a competition. I would SWAG that many, MANY more scientific noobs have just given up 10 seconds after opening Bru'n Water than EZ. EZ is a simple model with a simple workflow, but it has it's place. My first car was 400 bucks with terrible hail damage and a frightening shudder at 64.5 MPH. It served me well. There are a few more opportunities to screw something up, but it's getting people into learning. Always good.



Unless lightning is currently striking your water sample, water is electrically neutral. The positive charges = the negative charges. If you are only missing one piece of information, you can solve for it.

Here's how you can do this, I'll get you started.

Google "periodic table" and find the atomic weights of each of those. Calcium is ~40.1 grams per mol, for example. (47 mg/l) / (40.1 g/mol) = 1.17 (mg/g) mol/L, or 1.17 "milli moles per liter" = 1.17 mmol/L.

But Ca has a +2 charge, so in equivalents, is is 2 * 1.17 = 2.34 mEq/L. Do this for everything you have. I'll help you out a bit: Instead of "alkalinity", use "bicarbonate"... HCO3. Use 103. Mg is +2 Eq, SO4 is -2 Eq, the others are +1 or -1 Eq.

Once you have the mEq/L numbers:

Positive = Negatives
Ca + Mg + Na = HCO3 + SO4 + Cl

Solve for your missing Na and work backward to your mg/L concentration. This is an excellent exercise to familiarize yourself with basic water chemistry. There are a few assumptions in here, but it's a great start.

jmf143 01-31-2013 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GotPushrods (Post 4849132)
I know you both have donation links in your sheets, but it doesn't have to be a competition. I would SWAG that many, MANY more scientific noobs have just given up 10 seconds after opening Bru'n Water than EZ. EZ is a simple model with a simple workflow, but it has it's place. My first car was 400 bucks with terrible hail damage and a frightening shudder at 64.5 MPH. It served me well. There are a few more opportunities to screw something up, but it's getting people into learning. Always good.



Unless lightning is currently striking your water sample, water is electrically neutral. The positive charges = the negative charges. If you are only missing one piece of information, you can solve for it.

Here's how you can do this, I'll get you started.

Google "periodic table" and find the atomic weights of each of those. Calcium is ~40.1 grams per mol, for example. (47 mg/l) / (40.1 g/mol) = 1.17 (mg/g) mol/L, or 1.17 "milli moles per liter" = 1.17 mmol/L.

But Ca has a +2 charge, so in equivalents, is is 2 * 1.17 = 2.34 mEq/L. Do this for everything you have. I'll help you out a bit: Instead of "alkalinity", use "bicarbonate"... HCO3. Use 103. Mg is +2 Eq, SO4 is -2 Eq, the others are +1 or -1 Eq.

Once you have the mEq/L numbers:

Positive = Negatives
Ca + Mg + Na = HCO3 + SO4 + Cl

Solve for your missing Na and work backward to your mg/L concentration. This is an excellent exercise to familiarize yourself with basic water chemistry. There are a few assumptions in here, but it's a great start.

And all that is easier than using Bru'n Water? Nope.

GotPushrods 01-31-2013 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmf143

And all that is easier than using Bru'n Water? Nope.

Of course not. Bru'n water is a great (and free) tool. I used it to verify my math.

But the question was asked in the Brewing Science forum where many people come, presumably, to learn to fish. Not just be thrown a meal.

mgortel 01-31-2013 09:40 PM

I assume you got a water report from your local utility and did not send it off to a place like Ward laboraties (cause I cannot imagine a company not giving you the full report).

You may want to consider sending a sample from YOUR FAUCET into Ward laboratories anyway.....only $16.50 for report.

ajdelange 01-31-2013 10:31 PM

Don't send it from your faucet if you have a water softener installed (which you might as your water is pretty hard). In that case take the sample from before the softener as that is the water you will be brewing with.

mgortel 01-31-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Don't send it from your faucet if you have a water softener installed (which you might as your water is pretty hard). In that case take the sample from before the softener as that is the water you will be brewing with.
Good point! I wasn't even thinking about that....good catch. Point is....send a sample from exactly where you will be using the water from.... :)

Kaiser 02-01-2013 08:43 PM

I posted this in a different topic, but I think it belongs here:
Quote:

Originally Posted by gavball6 (Post 4848806)
Hi all,
Just got my water report, but it lists the Sodium results as "PENDING". Not sure what to do... Is there a typical (close enough) sodium number that I can plug into the EZ water calculator? Should I ignore and leave at zero? Here are the rest of my numbers:

Calcium 47 mg/L
Magnesium 16 mg/L
Sodium ???
Chloride 148 mg/L
Sulfate 49 mg/L
Alkalinity 85 mg/L

HELP???

that's easy. Go here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

enter your values but leave sodium empty. Now hit update calculations and show the report in the source water section. Look at the ion balance and increase sodium until the ion balance is close to 0. you'll have to keep hitting the update button. I got a sodium level of about 75. That's pretty high.

Kai


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