Kegconnection Complete Starter Kit and More Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > My Water Chemistry

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-18-2009, 01:39 PM   #11
Gremlyn
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,524
Liked 24 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

So just thinking a little more about this. If I adjust my water to be neutrally balanced, wouldn't that give me the ability to influence the beer more with the ingredients? boredatwork, given your example of decreasing the IBUs when using high sulfate water, the reverse would be true if I am 'neutrally watered', right? What I mean is if I want to go more bitter with neutral water, I just increase the hop additions. Theoretically my IBU ratings should be closer to whatever is calculated when brewing with neutral water, and the beer more true to the expected stats for malt as well. I would expect that trying to increase bitterness with adding sulfates too much, instead of with hops, could lend to the wrong kind of bitterness in my beer (which I think I have experienced with some extract batches in the past).

I guess we'll after tomorrow's batch (the GreenwoodRover memorial). I won't have anything to directly compare it to, but I recently brewed my own ESB, which isn't all that dissimilar, so it should be possible to get a good idea of the difference the water makes.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I'm a fan of "getting it in the can"!
Gremlyn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-18-2009, 11:42 PM   #12
boredatwork
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 281
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Yes. I don't think it would be a bad thing to always target balanced. Of course, there might be some subtleties that you are missing - but I think part of this goes back to city specific targets. In other words, some recipes might be assuming the recipe is using XXX city water. And going balanced is definitely a better starting point that being on the wrong side of the flavor scale and wondering why the recipe didn't turn out correctly.

At the end of the day you are working on creating the right flavor - however you arrive there doesn't matter.

__________________
boredatwork is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2009, 09:32 PM   #13
lazybean
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 185
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Any update on how the water worked for you? I am brewing my first AG (ESB)next week end and want to know how the 50/50 water worked.

__________________
lazybean is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2009, 12:56 AM   #14
Gremlyn
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,524
Liked 24 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Not yet, the firs brew with it just went to bottles, so it'll be a few more weeks yet before I can report back. I don't think my water changes would have hurt anything, so if you wanted to give it a shot...

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I'm a fan of "getting it in the can"!
Gremlyn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-16-2010, 04:21 PM   #15
Almighty
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 418
Liked 22 Times on 15 Posts

Default Some Follow-Up

Gremlyn1,
Thanks for starting this thread, I would like to revive it a bit for fellow San Diego Brewers. I live downtown so I'm also using Alvarado Treated Water. I have two follow-up questions:

1. So you guys seemed to focus on the Sulphate Chloride Balance which you do a wonderful job on explaining as does the Brewer's Friend Calculator. But my following up question is does the amount of Sulphate and Chloride matter or just the ratio. On Brewer's Friend: # Sulfate (SO4-2) – above 750 ppm and # Chloride (Cl-) – above 300 ppm are dangerous. But if kept below this does it matter. Because with SD water having a Sulphate value at 172 that means you are getting very close to the Chloride limit if you want a 2:1 ratio as recommended for Mild Ales.

2. My next question is if I want to brew ESB or stouts and want London Style water,

then just using the Sulphate concentration I would need to dilute my water with DI water at a ratio of 1:7 or is there another way?

__________________
Almighty is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-16-2010, 05:42 PM   #16
Gremlyn
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,524
Liked 24 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Thanks for bringing this thread back up. I've recently, through talking to some other HBT members, decided that the Brewer's Friend calc isn't quite right. Saq has a water calc spreadsheet he put together based on Palmer's calculations that is a little more detailed, and the water profile I originally was using actually isn't quite as good as I hoped and I have since switched it up a little. I don't have it on my at work, but I'll try to remember to post it later. Saq's spreadsheet bases things more on residual alkalinity (RA) to determine what profile is good for what SRM, and it still uses the SO4:Cl ratio for malt balance. The SO4:Cl ratio will have a negative impact if you go super high or super low, and I'm not sure what those thresholds are; I base my decision on other profiles I've seen.

From memory, I currently do 5 gal tap + 3 gal DI, and add in some baking soda and CaCl2.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I'm a fan of "getting it in the can"!
Gremlyn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-17-2010, 05:39 PM   #17
Almighty
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 418
Liked 22 Times on 15 Posts

Default

Thanks for the quick response.
I have a few more things to follow up on. So this is the water report I was using and it looks like you originally were. Did you have your water tested and find another source?



First off do you have a reference document for water profiles?

Also do you have a good list of styles and city profiles (Ex. Pilsen- Pilsners ..)

__________________
Almighty is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-17-2010, 07:14 PM   #18
Gremlyn
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,524
Liked 24 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Saq's spreadsheet has some on there: http://www.thesaq.net/beer/waterprofile/

There are some profiles link the sticky: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/bre...-tools-131443/

I haven't independently tested the water and that is the spreadsheet I was using to get my values. I've thought about testing the water, just haven't done anything about it yet. I'm hoping to buy a house soon and not long after install an RO system anyway, but who know when that'll actually happen.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I'm a fan of "getting it in the can"!
Gremlyn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-17-2010, 08:12 PM   #19
Almighty
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 418
Liked 22 Times on 15 Posts

Default

Thanks for your help,
I am going to mess around with a couple of these and see what works. I'll post what I figure works for a few different styles of beers so people can use my work for an example.

And good luck finding a place. I got lucky a few months ago and got a place downtown at 50% the 2005 price. So it is definitely a good time to buy if you can.

__________________
Almighty is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2012, 05:26 PM   #20
mrsunshades
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ball Ground, GA
Posts: 41
Default adjusting h2o?

OK, so this is very good: that folks like yourself are saying that the water can indeed be altered (assuming you have a water report, which I have coming). I also realize this is a whole new level to my brewing hobby, but I have come this far (made my own malt mill / CFC / 3 tier brew stand; I have the oxygenation system, the mash tun w/ sparge arm, etc etc etc...in other words I've been doing it a long time, and it is gut wrenching to go through all the wonderful process only to end up with a very bitter and harsh IPA come out of the keg)! So once I get the report, what do I do? Thanks, and have a great weekend!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by boredatwork View Post
An ESB is neutral but an Irish Red and definitely a Dunkelweizen would not be neutral but "malty".

Here is the thing about water. Water influences flavor as a function of its mineral profile (NOT as a function of its own flavor). While this is often treated as a insignificant phenomena, let's think about it a different way.

When you make a beer the grain influences flavor, the hops influence flavor, and the yeast influences flavor (both in strain and fermentation temperature). In all grain the mash profile will also influence flavor.

In that respect, water should be thought of as part of your recipe. Not just because it is something you need to think about, but because it can and will affect flavor.

For example. If you are brewing an Irish Red that you want to be balanced in flavor, you can tweak two parts of the recipe, the OG and the IBU. Lets say you go with an OG and IBU that you know contribute to a balanced flavor for an Irish Red. If you were to use water with a chloride:sulfate ratio of 3:1, then you beer would not have a balanced flavor. It would have a malty/sweet flavor with low bitterness. If you were to use water with a chloride:sulfate ratio of 1:3 I can tell you for a fact that your beer would not have a balanced flavor but an extreme bitterness and very little malty/sweet flavor. Now, if you were to used a ratio of 1:1 then you would have a balanced flavor.

But here's the key. Lets say you still want the balanced flavor, and lets say you have a chloride:sulfate ratio of 1:1.5. You have two options, you can either adjust the ratio of the water, or maybe in this case you could lower the IBU or raise the OG to compensate. Get it?

There are three variable that affect flavor (from the point of view of the recipe). Any one of them can be used to dial in the flavor you want out of your beer - and there are many combinations of ways to do it.
__________________
mrsunshades is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water chemistry DraconianHand All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 12-23-2012 01:28 PM
Help: Water Chemistry - ppm vs mg/L carp Brew Science 2 10-10-2009 06:54 PM
water chemistry - adjust top-up water? JLem Brew Science 12 09-23-2009 12:11 AM
water chemistry hokster Recipes/Ingredients 6 09-18-2009 03:09 PM
Please Help with my Water Chemistry sjlammer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 04-10-2009 06:45 PM