Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > mash ratio for no-sparge
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-19-2009, 05:04 AM   #1
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 169 Times on 149 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default mash ratio for no-sparge

Is there a recommended water:grain ratio for a no sparge mash?

Will changing the ratio affect the efficiency?

JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 05:10 AM   #2
elmetal
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pembroke Pines, FL
Posts: 1,040
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

efficiency for no sparge will be much lower.

the ratio is: Use all the water necessary for preboil volume to be reached.

__________________
Bottled: Imperial Stout[/SIZE]
elmetal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 05:20 AM   #3
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 169 Times on 149 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

right, I get that overall efficiency will be lower.

If I use all the water I would need to get my pre-boil volume, my ratio will change depending on the amount of total grain I am using (my boil volume is going to remain basically the same, while the grain bill gets bigger or smaller depending on my target OG, right?). So how do you estimate that OG? and conversely and more importantly, plan on how much grain to use to hit a desired OG?

For example, if I want to collect 3 gallons of 1.055 pre-boil wort, what should my total grain weight be (for simplicity. assume all pale 2-row)?


JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 05:24 AM   #4
elmetal
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pembroke Pines, FL
Posts: 1,040
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

well the ratio will change slightly but also remember that for every 8 lbs of grain you will absorb about a gallon of water.

I think 50-60% is a good efficiency to expect with no sparge. try it on beersmith and give it a try.

__________________
Bottled: Imperial Stout[/SIZE]
elmetal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 05:31 AM   #5
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 169 Times on 149 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

So at 60% efficiency, BeerSmith is saying that I need 7.5 pounds of grain. So to get 3 gallons of first runnings, I'd need ~4 gallons of mash water? This will give me a 2 qts/lb ratio.

Now, let's say I want 3 gallons of 1.040 wort. At 60% efficiency I would need 5.5 lbs of grain. To get 3 gallons of runnings, I should use ~3.6 gallons. This then takes my ratio to 2.6 qts/lb. At that high a ratio, can I expect the same efficiency?

I guess the gist of mu concern is that I am thinking this is a circular procedure - use efficiency to detetermine grain bill which then determines mash ratio which then influences efficiency (or does it?). Seems like a moving target.

__________________
My Hombrewing Blog

My Beer Cellar

JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 05:42 AM   #6
elmetal
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pembroke Pines, FL
Posts: 1,040
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

I understand your thinking process and I honestly cannot give you an answer as I am not a no sparge brewer.

I have a buddy (chefchris) who is and he may have more insight. I'll direct him here

__________________
Bottled: Imperial Stout[/SIZE]
elmetal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 05:31 PM   #7
chefchris
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Posts: 1,640
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Hello, I'm at work and therefore don't have my software in front of me.

On my first no sparge I assumed an efficiency of 55% so I adjusted my grain bill to that. I am now getting 60% with no sparge.

Basically i take my grain bill and figure out what my loss to absorption is going to be (.125 gal/lb). Then I add that to my pre-boil volume (7 gallons) to come up with my mash water amount. I actually started using a tad bit more than what I needed just to make sure I can reach my pre-boil volume, that way I can stop draining when I reach it.

As far as efficiency jumping around, mine has slowly climbed below 55% to a little over 50% in four batches. This included two IPAs, a mild and a stout all with varying OGs.

__________________
staygoldBREWING

I think you are confuisng circle k with a reach around. - Denny's Evil Concoctions
chefchris is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 06:58 PM   #8
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,187
Liked 1042 Times on 696 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

The way to think about this is to start with an assumption of 100% conversion efficiency. All that means is that you actually convert all starch to sugar in the mash. Simple example:
10lbs grain with a potential of 1.036 PPG. So, after conversion, you have 360 gravity units. Assuming you lose 1/2qt/lb in absorption, your strike would have to be about 30 qts because 30 qts - 5qts absorption = 25 qts (6.25gallons) preboil volume.

Ok, so you have 360 gravity units in the mash spread across 7.5 gallons of liquid/wort. That means the sugar density (SG) is 1.048 or there's 48 units per gallon.

When you drain that tun or remove the grain bag, whichever, about 1.25 gallons will remain in the grain. Therefore, you lose 48 x 1.25 = 60 gravity units. So, now you have 300 units left. 300 is 83% of 360 so 83% is the best efficiency you can hope for.

You may get a little less than 100% conversion efficiency.
You may get more wort to come out of the grain if you use a grain bag and let it drain.
You may get less wort out of the tun if you have deadspace and leave extra wort behind.

I think 80% is a reasonable expectation if you're sure you have good mash pH, a good crush, and don't leave any wort behind other than what is absorbed and non recoverable from the grain.

__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Did you know we are now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 08:31 PM   #9
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 169 Times on 149 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

It sounds like that it is safe to assume that the water:grain ratio has little impact on efficiency, so that if my no sparge set-up/process gets me 60% efficiency at a 1.5 qts/lb mash ratio, I can still expect it to give me 60% efficiency if my ratio changes to 2.5 qts/lb.

Which means, going full circle back to the 1st reply by elmetal, my ratio can be whatever it needs to be to get me to my pre-boil volume.

__________________
My Hombrewing Blog

My Beer Cellar
JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-19-2009, 08:53 PM   #10
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,187
Liked 1042 Times on 696 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Well, the practical answer is that you should use whatever it takes to get to your preboil volume. Alternatively, you can mash as a lower ratio and then top up with hot water to the full volume prior to removing the grain. However, you're closer to a sparge process without the benefits at that point.

__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Did you know we are now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mash water/sparge water ratio Philsc Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 28 06-13-2014 10:11 PM
Mash Ratio jbodkin All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 27 02-11-2010 02:27 AM
Water to Mash Ratio Darwin18 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 21 11-01-2009 04:07 PM
Partial mash - what should my water to grain ratio be? bonzombiekitty Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 6 10-27-2009 03:56 PM
Batch Sparge Water:Grain Ratio Beerthoven All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 07-03-2008 05:05 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS