mhermetz

Recipes 

So after diving further into water chemistry I believe I've been severely screwing up my lighter beers. I'm just looking for some clarification and maybe some insight as to why things are the way they are. I'll use my Munich Helles as a example.

Here are my water adjustments and the profile I've been using up until now:



When I first read into changing my water chem I think I focused way to heavily on the Ph rather then the whole picture. As you can see in the above example all I did was mess with the CL:SO ratio and PH (using strictly Sauermalz). This then leads to the Residual Alkalinity of an astounding -289. I'm positive this is bad because Palmer writes that anything from -50 to 0 is good for beers such as a Helles. Would this explain the slight harsh/somewhat twangy-ness I taste in the beer?


So after seeing all these "possible" mistakes I've reworked my alterations to the one below:



I'm now mainly using RO water to reduce the 105 Bicarbonate level my water contains. (I came up with that number using Palmers "divide by 50 and ,multiply by 61" rule used when converting Total Alkalinity to Bicarbonate). While the ph using this method is slightly higher I'm able to zone in on my residual alkalinity.

So I guess my overall question is... am I still out to lunch?

ajdelange

Recipes 

The harshness you experienced was probably caused by sulfate which has no place in delicate continental lagers. It just ruins noble hops. Forget that you ever heard about chloride/sulfate ratio. While it may have some application in British brewing the proper ratio on the continent is infinite - no sulfate if possible.

With the water you have a dilution of 3 + 1 (RO + tap) should get the alkalinity down low enough but will also, of course reduce calcium to a quarter of its original level. A couple of grams of calcium chloride per 5 gallons should take care of that problem. Now use 2-3% sauermalz and you should be pretty close on mash pH. If at all possible check with a pH meter.

mhermetz

Recipes 

Thank man. Seems I've completely missed the point of Sulfate in beer.

Read over Palmers water section again, specifically the paragraph on Sulfate, and it seems like it's only appropriate when brewing bitter beers like maybe an IPA? Personally I only have one IPA recipe I use, compared to about 20 others which are all malt flavour forward. You think it would be safe to assume I should axe as much sulfate as I can out of my beers, except for the IPA?

ajdelange

Recipes 

I suggest that this is what people should do the first time they brew anything, including the IPA. Then, in subsequent brewings of that same beer they should add some in and take careful tasting notes. The goal is to see if you like sulfate or not. It is quite possible that you might like your IPA better with no or less sulfate. It won't be as authentic but you might like it better.

Note that Colin Kaminsky has posted on another site that he experiments with sulfate by adding gypsum to the finished beer at tastings. I don't know how well that works but apparently it does for him.

harpo

Recipes 

So based on the idea of eliminating sulfate, is this an acceptable addition to my water?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 11
Mg: 2
Na: 5
Cl: 6
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 25

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 9.8 / 8.3
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 28.24
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 5
Roasted Grain: 0.25
Beer Color (SRM): 14.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 0.846938776
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 18 / 18
Mg: 2 / 2
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 19 / 19
SO4: 15 / 15
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.27 / 1.27

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 25
RA: 11
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.30


OR, is this a better attemp?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 11
Mg: 2
Na: 5
Cl: 6
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 25

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 9.8 / 8.3
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 28.24
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 5
Roasted Grain: 0.25
Beer Color (SRM): 14.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 3.387755102
MgSO4: 3 / 2.540816327
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 40 / 40
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 58 / 58
SO4: 47 / 47
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.25 / 1.25

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 25
RA: -9
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.28


I just noticed I am using a down-rev version where the recommended pH is 5.2-5.4 and I have been testing to get the pH lower. This would indicate that my pH is too low for either case, right?

__________________

Primary--NADA
Secondary--NADA
Keg--NADA
On Deck--Waiting for the TTB to give me my brewers notice.

Big Choice Brewing Company
Broomfield, CO
@BigChoiceBrew
info@bigchoicebrewing.com
OPENING APRIL 2012

ajdelange

Recipes 

Either of those should be fine. One might work better for one type of beer and the other for another. The pH estimates are probably not realistic. You will probably have to add some sauermalz. Be guided by your meter.

harpo

Recipes 

I found that to be true in the past few (5) batches I have used the pH meter. Most often the pH is higher than the ez calc said it would be. I like that because higher pH is easier to correct than lower. In the last batch I brewed using the calculator, I assumed my pH was going to be higher and added a little more lactic acid than I was otherwise advised by the EZ calculator. Gave me a better pH right away, involving much less correction (actually none as the actual pH was just over 5.4).

I haven't yet used sauermalz, only lactic acid. Is it just the process of adding the sauermalz to the grainbill?

__________________

Primary--NADA
Secondary--NADA
Keg--NADA
On Deck--Waiting for the TTB to give me my brewers notice.

Big Choice Brewing Company
Broomfield, CO
@BigChoiceBrew
info@bigchoicebrewing.com
OPENING APRIL 2012

ajdelange

Recipes 

Same idea - it is lactic acid on the sauermalz that does the job. The differences are
1. Sauermalz is easier to measure out (IMO).
2. The addition calculation is one even I can remember: 1 % of grist per 0.1 pH drop
3. There is a lag. pH will seem to be alarmingly low right after dough-in but will climb to its proper value over 15 minutes or so.
4. The malt itself adds subtle complexity to lagers

WRT Item 4: this may not be suitable for ales. I don't do ales (except Kölsch where it is suitable) and so don't really know about this. When I do brew a British style ale I use hydrochloric acid instead as that's more traditional.

harpo

Recipes 

Nice.

I have kids, so I raided their medicine cabinet for the measurement device. It measures out 1-8 mL in 1/4-mL graduations, and I use even amounts of lactic acid to make things easier.

I plan on using sauermalz next brew day. So if I want to go from 5.7 pH (calculated) to 5.4, my sauermalz would be 3% of my total grain bill? If my grain bill is 26#, my sauermalz would be just over 3/4#, right?

So by going with 1# even of sauermalz, I may take my pH further down than what I want? Guess some more beer needs to be brewed for some trials with sauermalz....

__________________

Primary--NADA
Secondary--NADA
Keg--NADA
On Deck--Waiting for the TTB to give me my brewers notice.

Big Choice Brewing Company
Broomfield, CO
@BigChoiceBrew
info@bigchoicebrewing.com
OPENING APRIL 2012

ajdelange

Recipes 

1# would be 1/(26 + 1) = 3.7% so, if the rule of thumb applied in this particular case you would be down 0.37 pH

I know it's tough but if you want good beer you have to brew and drink a lot of it.