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Old 05-08-2010, 12:06 AM   #1
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Default Help with water recipe for IPA using RO

Hi Guys, I am slowly learning this water thing...Using this recipe the SRM is about 8.8. After looking at Palmer's Nomograph and the EZ watercalcualtor I came up with these numbers. I am building up from RO water, All grain. 4.5 gallons in mash and 3G for the sparge/boil addition.

Ca 235
Mg 16
Na 55
Cl 149
So4 200
CaCo3 214
Alkalinity 37
Chloride to Sulfate ratio .75

Am I way off or does this look pretty good? If you have a different recommendation can you provide the Nomograph numbers and/or the EZ water numbers to help me and other learn the why what is recommended is better. It looks like this recipe counts on some of the maltiness to balance the hops so I think the Chloride to sulfate shouldn't be Very bitter??

Also, can someone help me understand the the calcium amounts throughout the process....I am reading that I want 100ppm in the boil. I am also reading that the grain should produce 35ppm in a 1.040 wort and that 50% of the calcuim will be lost to the grain and some may be lost due to precipitation with bicarbonates?? Using what ever profile I end up with after i get the recommendations, could someone show me the the projected calcium in boil and how it came to that.??? Something like this:

End up with 100ppm in boil
50% lost to spent grain = 200
some loss to precip with bicarbonates..I don't understand if i need to understand this.
.
.
Ca from additions 235+35
Ca from Grain 35

I have more questions, but I want to wait until I understand more up to this point.

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Old 05-09-2010, 04:12 AM   #2
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Any comments on the recipe?

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Old 05-09-2010, 04:35 AM   #3
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Regarding sulfate:chloride ratio, ISTR Colin Kaminski on The Brewing Network saying that his default ratio is 2, as low as 1 for a malty beer, and as high as 6 for a bright, hoppy beer.

<shrug>

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Old 05-10-2010, 04:13 PM   #4
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I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be. I have used Randy Moshers perfect pale ale water with great success.

Just tweak the water to be like his (I use less suphate ~250) and then go with it.

here is what i would do

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.5 / 3
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 1.5 / 1
CaSO4: (1) / (5.7)
CaCl2: 2 / 1.333333333
MgSO4: 5 / 3.333333333
NaHCO3: 2 / 1.333333333
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 121 / 121
Mg: 27 / 27
Na: 32 / 32
Cl: 57 / 57
SO4: 245 / 245
CaCO3: 113 / 113

RA (mash only): (45) (?????????)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.23 (Very Bitter)




note that I tweaked the CaSO4 to add most in the boil so my RA number in the mash would be higher. (see parentheses)

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Old 05-11-2010, 12:30 AM   #5
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Thanks for the recommendations I am going to run with these. Both you guys are saying that my Ratio was not in the bitter category and I agree, I don't know why but I have been a little leery of going that far to one side of the scale. A have a few other questions. With this latest profile recommendation, the Ca in mash is 81 and the Ca in boil will be 121-81= or 40ppm. So if I understanding it correctly thinking that 50% of the Ca could be lost to the grain, is it correct that the total in the boil would be around (81/2) plus my 40 for a total of 80.5? I read on a different post that 100ppm is required in the boil for a good protein break. (priest, P. 113) Lastly, I read that some Ca will come from the grain....should I even worry about this? If it's true, could I consider that 30-40 PPM from the grain plus the 80 as calculated above puts me right where I need to be. Shoot, I over think this way too much, but it's the need to know that drives me crazy...This water has been keeping me from brewing this recipe for a couple of weeks! Thanks for the help!

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Old 05-11-2010, 04:17 AM   #6
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Im not 100% on what goes where. Im sure you lose some Ca because it is in the water that gets trapped in the grain.

I am not an expert brewer by any means, but i can say that there are 3 elements to brewing good beer... art, science, and luck.

We know anecdotally that beers turn out well when we follow the recommendations made by Palmer and use the spread sheet developed by TH. I don;t know that there are many people who measure the final concentration of Ca in there beer.... Maybe we should, but it seems like most people worry about the minerals in there source water.

As an engineer, I understand where you are coming from... but i encourage you (at least for this brew) to look at water chemistry as part of the "art of brewing". Just get your source water dialed in, and roll with it. I would hate for you to be without IPA for another couple weeks

Good Luck

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Old 05-17-2010, 09:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjlammer View Post
look at water chemistry as part of the "art of brewing". I would hate for you to be without IPA for another couple weeks

Good Luck
On the Brewing Network's Brew Strong podcasts, Jamil and JP did a 4 part series on water, and what I took from it is that you want to be close, I even think they said close is good enough, you can be a little over, or a little under, it isn't going to be detrimental.

I recently brewed with water that I built for the first time, and right now I have a scale that can only weigh grams, not .10 of grams, so I did my best with what I had, and I came up with a profile for London water that was close, a little higher on the SO4 and Mg, but close enough for my purposes.

The beer has only been in the primary for 1 week, so I have not had the chance to sample it, but I'm sure it will be great. I know you aren't supposed to have to use any 5.2 stabilizer if you get your water right, but I did anyway...insurance.
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