Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Heady Topper video - 750 total hardness??
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-05-2014, 05:23 AM   #1
Braufessor
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 5 reviews
 
Braufessor's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NE Iowa, Iowa
Posts: 1,913
Liked 445 Times on 316 Posts
Likes Given: 366

Default Heady Topper video - 750 total hardness??

THought I would post this here. There is an extensive thread about cloning Heady Topper. In that thread, a video was posted ( a video Put up by The Alchemist Brewery). In the video they have a brief shot of the brewsheet for Heady Topper and you can see a bit of the water info. This is at about 1:45 in the 2 minute video. If you pause it, you can see that they seem to list very low mineral starting water and a target of 750 total hardness. Also, at 1:51 you can see where it seems to indicate Chloride starts at 10 in source water and is only increased to 30 something. So, all gypsum??? At any rate..... thoughts? Is that reasonable? Possible? Likely? How would you go about doing that? Here is the video:


Here is the link to the HBT thread on cloning Heady and it should take you to page 226 where the water discussion starts.... it is over the next few pages, and is recent in the discussion.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/head.../index226.html

Just curious if any of the more knowledgeable folks have any thoughts or insights in this regard.

Thanks!
__________________
Kegged/Serving: Porter, Session IPA, Dark Mild, Double Citra IPA, Oatmeal Amber Ale, Bo-Pils, Oktoberfest, American Brown Ale
Bottled
: Barley Wine, Sour Belgian Golden on Cherries, Sour Cherry Stout
Primary: Heady Topper Clone, Session IPA, Porter, Plain ol American Ale
Secondary/Lagering:
Future Brews: Heady Topper Clone, Ordinary Bitter, Dortmunder, Pilsner, Scottish 70, More...... More....... Beer.......
Braufessor is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 12:11 PM   #2
mtnagel
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 6 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 2,063
Liked 187 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 172

Default

Someone posted this screencap in that thread where you can clearly see a portion of the brewsheet.



Here's what I wrote in the HT thread where I'm trying figure out how to get my total hardness to 750:

Playing around with Bru'n Water, there is seemingly no good way to get that high without going over the limit on many ions.

With my source water, if I get to 300 ppm SO4 which is 12.9 g gypsum, but that gets only to 368 total hardness. Even if I go to 350 ppm SO4 (BW limit) with 15.6 g gypsum, which brings 153 ppm calcium (150 ppm BW limit), the TH is 420.

__________________
-Matt
mtnagel is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 12:36 PM   #3
ajdelange
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,369
Liked 661 Times on 548 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

What limit? Hardness of 750 is well above what any reasonable brewer would want and in itself exceeds the limits of common sense. Clearly this is a special beer. You can easily get that level of hardness by dissolving 1.3 g of gypsum in each litre of water which will result in sulfate at 720 mg/L. This too is well beyond what's reasonable, of course but for something experimental, why not?

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 12:42 PM   #4
mtnagel
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 6 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 2,063
Liked 187 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 172

Default

I was referencing the limits in Bru'n Water (350 ppm for SO4, 150 ppm for Ca, etc).

__________________
-Matt
mtnagel is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 01:16 PM   #5
Braufessor
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 5 reviews
 
Braufessor's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NE Iowa, Iowa
Posts: 1,913
Liked 445 Times on 316 Posts
Likes Given: 366

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
What limit? Hardness of 750 is well above what any reasonable brewer would want and in itself exceeds the limits of common sense. Clearly this is a special beer. You can easily get that level of hardness by dissolving 1.3 g of gypsum in each litre of water which will result in sulfate at 720 mg/L. This too is well beyond what's reasonable, of course but for something experimental, why not?
I guess that is my main question..... I know the hardness "can" be achieved - but do you think it "should" be achieved. Can you see it producing a wonderfully awesome double IPA like Heady Topper?? I think a couple people have already brewed some batches recently with these types of additions..... so, there should be some feedback coming.

Just curious, as that much gypsum seems so far above "normal" even for hoppy beers. Has anyone experimented with these levels and what were your thoughts in doing so?

Not to be conspiratorial I guess.... but do you think that they really treat their water like that?
__________________
Kegged/Serving: Porter, Session IPA, Dark Mild, Double Citra IPA, Oatmeal Amber Ale, Bo-Pils, Oktoberfest, American Brown Ale
Bottled
: Barley Wine, Sour Belgian Golden on Cherries, Sour Cherry Stout
Primary: Heady Topper Clone, Session IPA, Porter, Plain ol American Ale
Secondary/Lagering:
Future Brews: Heady Topper Clone, Ordinary Bitter, Dortmunder, Pilsner, Scottish 70, More...... More....... Beer.......
Braufessor is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 01:32 PM   #6
zwiller
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Posts: 241
Liked 20 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 25

Default

I bet he is doing what I used to do years ago. Use CaSO4 to hit mash pH. He probably does not add SO4 to sparge or boil and in the end the wort is in the 350ppm SO4 ballpark like most hop bombs...

I gave up doing this since there is some research that indicates that there is a limit to this reaction and the brewing spreadsheets don't make it easy to do. BUT, it worked and made good beer.

__________________
zwiller is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 01:51 PM   #7
Braufessor
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 5 reviews
 
Braufessor's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NE Iowa, Iowa
Posts: 1,913
Liked 445 Times on 316 Posts
Likes Given: 366

Default

Yeah - in playing with B'run Water and the recipe. Using 90% RO water to start, I need to add about 4.5 grams of gypsum per gallon to get to get to 750 hardness. This also gives about 670 Sulfate. This level of addition projects mash pH of 4.9 - obviously too low.

***EDIT**** I previously said I thought he was referencing High pH..... He was not. He was promoting low pH.. Following is corrected to reflect this:
https://braumeisters.net/viewtopic.php?t=124&p=967
I know in a longer video with John Kimmich (Alchemist Owner) he talks about not letting pH get too HIGH.... maybe even referencing numbers in the 5.1-5.3 range.

So, if these levels are attempted, would the likely process be to add moderate levels of gypsum to attain desired mash/sparge pH, and then later dump gypsum directly into the boil to achieve the 750 hardness level??

__________________
Kegged/Serving: Porter, Session IPA, Dark Mild, Double Citra IPA, Oatmeal Amber Ale, Bo-Pils, Oktoberfest, American Brown Ale
Bottled
: Barley Wine, Sour Belgian Golden on Cherries, Sour Cherry Stout
Primary: Heady Topper Clone, Session IPA, Porter, Plain ol American Ale
Secondary/Lagering:
Future Brews: Heady Topper Clone, Ordinary Bitter, Dortmunder, Pilsner, Scottish 70, More...... More....... Beer.......
Braufessor is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 01:53 PM   #8
zwiller
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Posts: 241
Liked 20 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 25

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braufessor View Post
I guess that is my main question..... I know the hardness "can" be achieved - but do you think it "should" be achieved. Can you see it producing a wonderfully awesome double IPA like Heady Topper?? I think a couple people have already brewed some batches recently with these types of additions..... so, there should be some feedback coming.

Just curious, as that much gypsum seems so far above "normal" even for hoppy beers. Has anyone experimented with these levels and what were your thoughts in doing so?

Not to be conspiratorial I guess.... but do you think that they really treat their water like that?
I have considerable experience with gypsum and IPA's. I learned the technique from Terry Foster's Pale Ale. I have gone as high as 450ppm SO4 and it works. I think over 350ppm and it is diminishing returns.

Never had HT and have been unsuccessful trying to work a trade with someone to get my hands on some. I would be able to spot 600ppm SO4 in it if they we're are doing it, but I doubt they are. To me, the magic behind HT is the can... IPAs are better the fresher they are and the can does a better job than glass.
__________________
zwiller is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 01:56 PM   #9
ajdelange
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,369
Liked 661 Times on 548 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braufessor View Post
I guess that is my main question..... I know the hardness "can" be achieved - but do you think it "should" be achieved.
I wouldn't go near a beer like that but I try to keep an open mind. If it tastes good it is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braufessor View Post
Can you see it producing a wonderfully awesome double IPA like Heady Topper??
If it does it does and I can't argue with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Braufessor View Post
Not to be conspiratorial I guess.... but do you think that they really treat their water like that?
Being somewhat of a cynic it did occur to me that the video may have been disinformation (or that part of it anyway).
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2014, 02:03 PM   #10
Braufessor
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 5 reviews
 
Braufessor's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NE Iowa, Iowa
Posts: 1,913
Liked 445 Times on 316 Posts
Likes Given: 366

Default

My mistake in earlier post - Kimmich was promoting LOWER pH..... 5.1-5.3....
https://braumeisters.net/viewtopic.php?t=124&p=967

Extensive video here, but it is referenced in one of the Q/A below it.

__________________
Kegged/Serving: Porter, Session IPA, Dark Mild, Double Citra IPA, Oatmeal Amber Ale, Bo-Pils, Oktoberfest, American Brown Ale
Bottled
: Barley Wine, Sour Belgian Golden on Cherries, Sour Cherry Stout
Primary: Heady Topper Clone, Session IPA, Porter, Plain ol American Ale
Secondary/Lagering:
Future Brews: Heady Topper Clone, Ordinary Bitter, Dortmunder, Pilsner, Scottish 70, More...... More....... Beer.......
Braufessor is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Goody Topper - Heady Topper Clone Rendition LJvermonster Recipes/Ingredients 1 03-24-2014 09:52 PM
Goody Topper - Heady Topper Clone Rendition LJvermonster Recipes/Ingredients 2 03-24-2014 07:07 PM
Total water hardness no ca/mg. How to adjust? omearabros Recipes/Ingredients 0 10-19-2013 04:53 PM
Water profile - total hardness? foodplusbeer Brew Science 3 02-09-2013 10:20 PM
total hardness = calcium + magnesium? mb2696 Brew Science 4 12-28-2009 05:56 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS