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Old 09-18-2011, 03:06 PM   #11
ajdelange
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Sulfate and chloride do not offset one another in the sense that if you have too much sulfate you can "neutralize" its effects by adding more chloride. OTOH chloride rounds, softens, sweetens and fills out the beer. You might be able to tolerate more sulfate in a beer that has those characteristics than in a thin dry one. If you are concerned about this I'd say add in an equal amount of CaCl2. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the effects of chloride (up to a reasonable point of course) but I have heard complaints about hops harshness.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the target beer is apparently brewed with a fair amount of sulfate (and you are quite right - 111 ppm is nothing compared to some) and low chloride so, presumably, if you like their beer you should like this. Only brewing and tasting will really resolve this for you. Terrible thing but ya gotta do it!

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Old 09-18-2011, 03:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
Sulfate and chloride do not offset one another in the sense that if you have too much sulfate you can "neutralize" its effects by adding more chloride. OTOH chloride rounds, softens, sweetens and fills out the beer. You might be able to tolerate more sulfate in a beer that has those characteristics than in a thin dry one. If you are concerned about this I'd say add in an equal amount of CaCl2. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the effects of chloride (up to a reasonable point of course) but I have heard complaints about hops harshness.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the target beer is apparently brewed with a fair amount of sulfate (and you are quite right - 111 ppm is nothing compared to some) and low chloride so, presumably, if you like their beer you should like this. Only brewing and tasting will really resolve this for you. Terrible thing but ya gotta do it!
I'm clearly over thinking it. Ive decided to go full circle and just use the general guidelines you provided with equal parts of both. I'm not trusting that Surly brews without additions and KNOW that the beer will turn out great with the balanced approach. Reason I'm being so cautious is I've been fighting some astringency issues and harshness, which is what put me on this path to begin with... I'll tinker with the levels by lowering the CL on the next batch!
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Old 09-18-2011, 04:18 PM   #13
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Mashed in! Will report back on how things turn out. 5g of both - as I ran into another small snag - my scale doesn't do tenths of a gram! Blade scale also on order for next round.

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Kegged: Waldo Lake Amber, Notty as Helles, Vanilla Porter, Sweet Stout (nitro), NB Surly Furious Clone, Petite Saison D'ete, Le Seigle Belge Saison, BM Cream of 3 Crops, Edworts Apfelwein
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In Process: Braggot
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:53 AM   #14
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Also just got back from the LHBS - had a PH meter, but no solutions in stock. Will have to pick I up at a later date and will likely be a bit blind on this brew unfortunately.
For what it's worth, I've gotten my pH solutions (4.0, 7.0, and storage) from Amazon. The price is about $12 each. (If you're an Amazon prime member, you can get them in less than 24 hours with free shipping.) I went this route instead of ordering from any of the homebrew places (a couple of which bottled the solutions themselves, so I wanted to make sure I was getting the right stuff).
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Old 09-19-2011, 02:59 PM   #15
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I'd recommend tracking down a copy of the Bru'un Water Spreadsheet at http://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/. Be sure to "Enable" it to run once you open in Excel.

I personally can't trust my local tap water to be consistent, so I found a bottle water supplier with good water sheets and entered the mineral contents to the spreadsheet. Then I saved a second copy of it, so it always opens with my base water already filled in and I can just tweak for my additions and target. It includes most of the major brewing cities' profiles, as well as a set of generic color-flavor profiles (i.e. brown malty or yellow bitter) that work quite well, in my experience. Once used to its interface, it is ABSOLUTELY the fastest I've used (I've tested EZwaterCalculator, Proash, BeerSmith, et al.) to find a good mineral balance.

It is also worth noting that there will nearly always be a small amount of salts/minerals that do not dissolve completely (and are thus unavailable to the wort/yeast). If your scale isn't accurate enough, simply round up to the closest digit and work with that - you'll be fine (unless you're doing a 1-gal batch, I suppose).

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Old 09-19-2011, 06:04 PM   #16
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If there are salts that do not dissolve you are using way too much. Chalk should never be added to brewing water unless you are at a level of sophistication well beyond most beginning home brew water tweakers and are using a spreadsheet which is more sophisticated than any of the ones mentioned (none of them handles chalk properly). The only time chalk should be added otherwise is to the mash if a pH meter reading indicates that mash pH is too low.

The other salts are soluble enough that, as noted, only an extreme excess would result in them not dissolving completely.

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Old 09-19-2011, 09:29 PM   #17
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Appreciate all of the input - will likely purchase the solutions from Amazon as I'm a Prime Member.

Any recommendations for the meter itself?

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Kegged: Waldo Lake Amber, Notty as Helles, Vanilla Porter, Sweet Stout (nitro), NB Surly Furious Clone, Petite Saison D'ete, Le Seigle Belge Saison, BM Cream of 3 Crops, Edworts Apfelwein
Bottled: Nada!
In Process: Braggot
Upcoming Brews: Surley Furious Clone, Uintah Wyld
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