First stab at adjusting water

I took my first stab at adjusting my water this weekend. I'm on a well and my water goes through a softener. When I got my water report it was exactly what you'd expect, high sodium, no calcium, and high alkalinity. I used the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and came up with a profile for a pale wheat ale I'm working on. Not only am I hoping to improve my beer quality I was also hoping for an efficiency bump. My understanding is that the the lack of Ca will keep the mash pH high, affect starch conversion, and other enzymatic reactions.

Well the first noob mistake that I made was to realize my scale wouldn't measure to the correct accuracy. Mine is accurate to 1 gram (and I think that's questionable). So I measured out and weighed 10 tsps of each of my additions, divided by 10 to get weight per tsp and then used fractional tsp measurements to get as close as I could. I've also ordered a scale with a .1 gram accuracy.

I went to add lactic acid to my strike water. Same mistake, no way to measure mL. I have a pipet that is graduated in 1 mL increments. So I estimated between 2 and 3 mL to get as close to 2.6 mL. I've also ordered a graduated cylinder.

Next I went to measure the mash pH with my test strips. I got no reading off the strips whatsoever. I take that to mean my mash pH was below 4.6 or that the test strips are useless. I also didn't get a reading off the sparge runoff so I'm assuming the latter. I've also ordered a pH meter.

As for the efficiency, I have been struggling with that in my batches. I've been getting 60% or so. It's not been a big deal because I just add another lb or so of grain and I'm fine. My batch from yesterday, however, was around 70%. I'm attributing it to the water profile.

The next question that remains to be seen is how it tastes. Unfortunately I have to wait a month or so to report on that.

You made several approximations, but I'll bet the beer will be better by getting closer to ideal conditions. I hope you'll post the results.

I'm wondering about the sodium - what is the level in your water?

Your understanding of brewing with ion-exchange softened water is correct. The alkalinity remains and the calcium and magnesium that could have helped lower the RA, are missing. The sodium is their replacement.

Ion-exchange softened water is not always a bad thing. That technique is sometimes used on relatively soft water that happens to have iron and/or manganese. In that case, the sodium content of the treated water might not be too bad. But I would not be surprised that your water was hard and the treated water now is full of sodium.

You might be able to brew some styles with the water if the sodium is less than about 100 ppm. But it is iffy. If the untreated water does NOT have iron or manganese problems, then a good option may be to use was that has been by-passed around the softener. On a lot of homes, exterior hose bibs are not connected to the softener.

As you found, paper pH strips are a complete waste of time. They have finite life, are very sensitive to degradation from atmospheric moisture, and can produce incorrect results due to the color of the wort. A good quality, calibrated pH meter is always best. In the absence of a meter, a program like Bru'n Water paired with accurate water quality information will get you in the ball park. That is way better than flying blind or guessing. As you found, having the ability to measure the relatively small mineral and acid additions for homebrew-sized brewing is important. Being able to measure to the tenth of a gram and about quarter mL is often necessary. It does sound like you employed appropriate measures to work-around your measurement limitations.

ncbrewer said:

I'm wondering about the sodium - what is the level in your water?

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The sodium from the tap was 144 ppm. According to John Palmer that's at the very upper end of what's acceptable. The water profile I put together was a 60/40 distilled/tap water dilution with additions of CaCl, Gypsum, Epsom Salts and lactic acid. That got my Sodium to 57 ppm, my Ca to 52 ppm and my alkalinity below 50 ppm. (Assuming the approximation of my additions were correct) As I said the Ca right out the tap was 1 ppm and the alkalinity was at 265 ppm

I do have one outside tap that is not hooked up to the softener. It was recommended from another forum member that I get that tested, but I'm actually trying to sell the house and just didn't want to pay for another test. I'll try and work with what I have here for now and get another test once I'm in a new house.

First piece of advice: don't brew with softened water. Calcium is beneficial to beer, sodium is not (though it's not disastrous either in limited quantity). The fact that your sodium was 144 indicates 144/23 =6.3 mEq/L hardness which is 315 ppm as CaCO3 hardness which matches up fairly well with your 265 ppm alkalinity so the base water probably doesn't contain much sodium but may contain a fair amount of chloride and sulfate. Best, of course, to invest in a current test of the unsoftened water. Most softeners have a bypass valve and if yours doesn't it's probably worth installing a saddle valve (such as is used to pick off water for ice makers in refrigerators) to obtain your brewing water.

ajdelange said:

First piece of advice: don't brew with softened water.

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Right, I realize I shouldn't be brewing with softened water which is why I'm trying to adjust it, lower the sodium and alkalinity and add calcium. Are you telling me I can't adjust my softened water using the Bru'n spreadsheet? If so, why not?

As I had stated in a previous response I have one spigot that is not softened but I'm flat out not going pay to have the unsoftened water tested at this point. I'm trying to sell the house. I'll get water tested when I'm in my new house.

There is no easy way to get rid of the sodium other than by reverse osmosis. When I say reverse osmosis I mean either that you install an RO device after the softener ( that's where it should be installed with water as hard as yours) or buy enough reverse osmosis or distilled water to dilute the sodium down to a level you consider acceptable. Spreadsheets and calculators should allow you to make the dilution calculation. Dilution will reduce the alkalinity and the concentration of all ions in the same proportion. You can also get rid of the alkalinity by adding acid and you can supplement the calcium by adding either the chloride or the sulfate and the problem with trying to do that with a spreadsheet is that you need to know the sulfate and chloride. You did not mention those but perhaps you do in fact know them in which case you can input the parameters of the soft water into a spreadsheet or calculator and have at it just as you can any other water profile.

As you are just setting out the easiest approach would be to use 100% RO or DI water or dilute your water down enough to get the alkalinity under 30 or so and then use the guidelines in the Primer. When you get installed in your new digs then get a complete water report and proceed from there.

The technique you described of diluting with distilled water and adding addition is exactly what I did. I added CaCl, gypsum, epsom salts & lactic acid. Sulfates from my tap were at 16 ppm and the chloride was 2 ppm so I had those in the spreadsheet also. After the dilution my sodium was about 50ppm. I mentioned in a previous post the alkalinity was under 50. It was actually closer to zero. I don't have the final tally from the spread sheet handy but the numbers in the adjusted row were all green, indicating acceptable values, and matched up very closely with the profile I was shooting for.

Unless I'm not understanding I think what I did was OK.

If you put in accurate data and calculated an answer that is satisfactory to you I guess I don't understand the question. Reading back, I guess there isn't one.

No, the OP really wasn't a question, just a description of what I did. I certainly welcome any input and I'm actually comforted that the input you provided validated what I did.

Reporting back. First of all the brew that I made with my water adjustment experiment is done and has been kegged for a little more than a week. The beer was a pale wheat, my own recipe, in fact the first time I'd created my own recipe. I think it will take a bit more time see how it really came out but my first take on it was that it was light drinking and very balanced overall. I'd say there's nothing too special about it, but it seems to be a very good and drinkable beer. Success.

I brewed again this weekend, a trappist ale, using the new equipment I'd bought from my last experiment, new scale, graduated cylinder, refractometer and pH meter. Had a much easier time measuring out the additions for the water this time. The one thing I didn't realize until I started brewing was that the initial calibration/conditioning of the pH meter I bought took up to 4 hours. So that wasn't really ready for use. Regardless, I went ahead and stuck it in the mash uncalibrated to see what it would read. It read 5.2. My guess that even uncalibrated it was pretty close. Also just for good measure I tried the pH strips again. Those things really are useless.

There is a Sticky at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/ intended to help people new to the use of pH meters. Have a look at that and then practice, practice, practice on common household stuff like juices, milk, vinegar, ammonia, bleach....

ajdelange said:

There is a Sticky at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/ intended to help people new to the use of pH meters. Have a look at that and then practice, practice, practice on common household stuff like juices, milk, vinegar, ammonia, bleach....

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Great information there. I was surprised to see that it said take a mash pH reading every 5 minutes until the reading stabilizes. Couldn't you just wait toward the end of your mash and take a reading then?

ajdelange said:

There is a Sticky at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/ intended to help people new to the use of pH meters. Have a look at that and then practice, practice, practice on common household stuff like juices, milk, vinegar, ammonia, bleach....

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Just a real quick question about the pH meter. My instructions said to store it either 4.0 buffer solution or bottled drinking water. I chose the latter. I'm wondering if one storage method is better than the other?

roger_tucker said:

Great information there. I was surprised to see that it said take a mash pH reading every 5 minutes until the reading stabilizes. Couldn't you just wait toward the end of your mash and take a reading then?

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Yes, but then your pH reading is what it is. If it is correct (or close enough) and this should be the case after you learn the ropes then that is fine. If it is not you have waited too long to make corrections (or really prolonged your brew day). With experience you will see where the pH is heading based on the changes over a few minutes, can anticipate where it will end up and can initiate corrective action earlier.

roger_tucker said:

Just a real quick question about the pH meter. My instructions said to store it either 4.0 buffer solution or bottled drinking water. I chose the latter. I'm wondering if one storage method is better than the other?

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In general one does not store a pH meter in water because this establishes a chemical potential across the junction causing water to migrate in and electrolyte out. It is usual to employ a solution of potassium chloride at the same strength as the electrolyte. Sometimes this is buffered to a certain pH and sometimes not. Nonetheless, it is always true that one should follow the manufacturer's instructions. If the manufacturer doesn't recommend one over the other that means that in his opinion one is not better than the other.

roger_tucker said:

Just a real quick question about the pH meter. My instructions said to store it either 4.0 buffer solution or bottled drinking water. I chose the latter. I'm wondering if one storage method is better than the other?

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I've seen multiple references that cite KCl concentrations of storage solutions ranging from 1 to 3 N. I assume that the preferred KCl concentration is dependent upon the strength of the solution within the probe.

In my opinion, neither plain 4.0 buffer solution or drinking water are suitable storage media for pH probes, regardless of what a manufacturer tells you. The chemistry of a pH probe will be disrupted if the potassium is leached from the probe. It makes no sense to use anything but a moderately saturated KCl solution for probe storage.

PS: Don't forget that the manufacturer is always interested in selling you a replacement probe. Getting the user to ruin their probe more quickly means that the sales opportunity will be sooner. Please don't listen to anyone telling you that storing your probe in anything except a KCl solution is OK.

mabrungard said:

Please don't listen to anyone telling you that storing your probe in anything except a KCl solution is OK.

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Unless it is the manufacturer! Believe it or not they know even more about the design of what they make than Martin does. The reference juice isn't always potassium chloride.

In the case of the relatively new Hach pH Pro+ the junction is not immersed during storage. It is thus only necessary to keep the humidity inside the cap high so that the bulb does not dry. Distilled or tap water is thus sufficient for the storage of this electrode and that's what they recommend though it is interesting that they all seem bothered by this and sometimes tell inquirers that they are studying the problem. Standard 3M KCl solutions will do the job here because they contain water but are not necessary (unless Hach's further investigation reveals at some later date that there is some as yet unknown advantage). Hach is not the kind of company that survives by promoting extra electrode sales through giving bad advice on storage solutions. They do that by shutting off the meter when the slope drops beneath 95%.

I purchased a Hach PocketPro+ last January (I've forgotten when it was delivered, I think it didn't come until March). I've used it on 5 brews so far, and I've only tested it a few times before I started to brew with it. On the last brew I started to get bizarre readings, and today I tried to calibrate it several times, but the display always showed ECAL, which means a failed calibration. Now, when it will even turn on, the SENSOR? message flashes.

Hach told me that although the unit is guaranteed for a year, the sensor is considered a consumable so it isn't covered under the guarantee, and they had no data as to how long a sensor should last. They suggested cleaning it with a 10% hydrochloric acid solution, which they will sell me for $25 plus shipping, or simply replace the sensor for $67 plus shipping. I haven't decided which of these unpleasant alternatives I will undertake, but I'm unhappy with having to fork out this much money for a $100 unit that only lasted 5 months.

Get back on the phone with them and read them the riot act. They know darn well that a sensor should last longer than 5 months. This represents a dramatic change in policy. As reported here they have previously been very liberal in replacing electrodes and meters. They even replaced a unit a guy melted by putting the batteries into backwards.

Not to mention the fact that their warranty says nothing about the sensor being separate (check it) and that the warranty for replacement sensors is 6 mos which you are covered under if you got the thing in March. Point this out to them. Tell them you understand that damage from use is not covered (it isn't) and offer to send the thing back for their inspection.

Given other people's experiences you should be able to obtain satisfaction. If not let us know and we will withdraw our recommendation of this meter based on poor customer support and reliability. Of course if you did damage it (stick it in wort at > 122 °F for example) then you can't really expect them to cover you for that.

Thank you, I'll do that and report back. I probably just didn't speak with the right person there.

One thing I forgot to mention last night is that if you want to try acid cleaning just get some hydrochloric acid from the hardware store. This is plenty good for pH electrode cleaning. From the store it is about 38% and the manual suggests 10% so dilute 3:1. But be careful! Just opening the jug indoors can give you a nasty hit from the fumes (HCl gas). This won't help with the situation here as the problem is not mineral build up after 5 brewing uses. You might try an enzyme based cleaner (Zymit) if you have any. Though again with 5 uses you shouldn't have sugar/protein buildup unless you didn't rinse wort off after use.

Yes, I think they call it muriatic acid at the hardware store. I'll see if I can pick up some Zymit, it might be a good idea to clean the sensor after every brew session, as they indicated that beer is a little bit out of the ordinary for what they thought this unit could handle. But I didn't mishandle the unit, I always rinsed it off with DI water and stored it with some water in the cap, and it never touched hot wort.

After speaking with a few of Hach's techs and going through cleaning the sensor with dishwashing liquid (which actually helped, for a while) and several calibrations, they've finally told me they're sending me a new probe. I guess they figure if a customer has gone through enough grief and still wants satisfaction, they'll come through. Hopefully these probes were a defective initial run and they've gotten their act together with some new ones.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

Now that I have the invoice, it seems that the probe won't ship until August 21. I suppose that means that it's a recent manufacturing run, and maybe they've ironed out the bugs this time.

I hope so. It's been on the market since last fall and the history has been pretty good but a couple of guys have had similar problems. Hach have always bent over backwards to take care of these folks though and them pulling the "sorry, out of warranty" bit represents a departure and an alarming one. It only takes one 'aw sh*t' to wipe out a dozen 'attaboy's.

As the discrepancies between the different tech people I spoke with were rather wide, it seems that their techs aren't all on the same page. I'm not sure what that might imply.

One implication is that all techs are not created equal. No surprise there. With this particular product there is the fact that it was developed in and is, I think, made in Germany so their basic info on it has to come from there. It is still a relatively new product and apparently there are still production problems with it as evidenced by the fact that they can't seem to keep it stocked and that they are still sending out units with bad electrodes. I don't think the factory has determined yet what the best way to store it is. The junction is, from what can be seen externally, unlike any other I have ever seen before and the sense wire in the pH bulb is strange in some way too (but I can't remember what it is and the unit is in VA). Add to this that they make meters that sell for a little over $100 (this one) and others that sell for over $1000, some of which go into a shirt pocket and some of which get installed in water treatment plant and perhaps it isn't so strange that you get differing technical positions as they have to cover such a diversity of gear. But the management should have laid down a uniform return policy for defective units.

My unit is clearly marked "country of origin: China," and the sensor is coming from there as well.

I don't have mine with me so I couldn't check an apparently remembered incorrectly. I still guessing it was designed by Lange in Germany. Much of Hach's stuff is.