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Old 09-09-2009, 04:57 AM   #41
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Finally, a one screen calculator that I can actually use.

I have never been much to target a specific cities water but, I have always been interested in doing a better job with the water I get. I am thinking this might be the catalyst to that.

Thanks.

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Old 09-09-2009, 12:11 PM   #42
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I think of water profiles of popular brewing cities almost like recipes. They are good to use when you're first learning, but eventually you figure out what you like and you design it on your own later. It gets harder it seems when you want to brew a style that was maybe adapted from a London style and later Americanized. I mean, I did a smoked porter so I sort of looked at English/Scottish water profile but I doubt Stone/Alaskan model to London. Who knows.

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Old 09-09-2009, 02:11 PM   #43
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Any way to include a pH calculator tool similar to that on BreWater? I just dunno what the math is.

I assume that when the sparge water value is non-zero, then the boil additions are calculated to keep the water balanced throughout the brew session? That is, if the spreadsheet calculates a value, then this is what is needed to be added to the kettle?

Sorry if this is covered in the Palmer SS. I am just not familiar with it.

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Old 09-09-2009, 02:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by maxhavoc View Post
The 1.22 factor only works if your original pH is 8.4 or less. Here in Austin, our municipal water is ~9.4, and the most recent water report shows "Total alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 72"... by the 1.22 that would make the HCO3 = 87.8, but due to the high pH, a different formula has to be used.

From: Alkalinity (As of CaCO3 to As of HCO3-): Practical guide on unit conversion | Coal Geology & Mining

http://coalgeology.com/wp-content/up...geologycom.xls

From above spreadsheet: HCO3 = (Alkalinity as CaCO3 * 61) / (( 1 + ((2x10^-10.3)/(10^(-pH)))*50)

My calc comes out as 54, which is significantly off from the aforementioned 88...

Apparently, this is because "At higher pH carbonic acid becomes more stable than the bicarbonate ion."
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Thanks for pointing that out. I've looked into this a bit now and I think I'll leave it alone for a few reasons: 1. Palmer's spreadsheet doesn't account for it. 2. Even up to a pH of 9 its still in the ball park (within 10%). 3. I'm not sure if it even matters since the mash will bring the pH down anyways.

Ironically my spreadsheet (and Palmer's) convert back to alkalinity as CaCO3 to calculate Residual Alkalinity (using the 1.22) so if you put in your number (times 1.22) it would later divide by 1.22 and you'd be fine. THe spreadsheet would only be off (possibly) for those who enter HCO3 directly and have high water pH.

Also, just FYI when I put your numbers into the calculator on the second link you gave, I got 70.2 for the calculated HCO3 (not 54).

Also, just FYI my virus software picks up a trojan threat in the first link you posted.

Cheers!
Wow! By my latest report the total alk of my tap water is 37 and my pH is a whopping 10.

Plugging those numbers into the coalogy calculator returns a HUGE difference between the simple and complex calcs. By the simple method(x1.22), the return is 45.1. By the complex method, the return is 23.

It would seem, if the calculator is correct, that pH does make a big difference.

PS: Norton 360 reports that "Nine Ball" is piggy backing that link.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:36 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
I think of water profiles of popular brewing cities almost like recipes. They are good to use when you're first learning, but eventually you figure out what you like and you design it on your own later. It gets harder it seems when you want to brew a style that was maybe adapted from a London style and later Americanized. I mean, I did a smoked porter so I sort of looked at English/Scottish water profile but I doubt Stone/Alaskan model to London. Who knows.
That is exactly how it should work. There is enough information out there on the interweb to put together a target profile based on intended flavor rather then on location.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:40 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by boredatwork View Post
That is exactly how it should work. There is enough information out there on the interweb to put together a target profile based on intended flavor rather then on location.
I tend to just pay attention to my residual alkalinity, sulfate/chloride ratio and minimum amounts for yeast health of ions. I also watch out that I don't have a crazy amount of sodium or other minerals.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:40 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilaMinumBeer View Post
Any way to include a pH calculator tool similar to that on BreWater? I just dunno what the math is.

I assume that when the sparge water value is non-zero, then the boil additions are calculated to keep the water balanced throughout the brew session? That is, if the spreadsheet calculates a value, then this is what is needed to be added to the kettle?

Sorry if this is covered in the Palmer SS. I am just not familiar with it.
If you are talking about mash pH, I kind of intentionally left that off because I chose to use the Residual Alkalinity value to determine and show the right range for the color in order to bring the mash pH into the proper range (5.2 to 5.6 @ mash temp). I could have used/shown the "100% base malt mash pH" instead/also but I think for most people that concept is too confusing.

The pH calculator in BreWater appears to be only for figuring acid adjustments? Mine figures those into the RA number.

Your assumption about the boil additions is exactly right.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:56 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilaMinumBeer View Post
Wow! By my latest report the total alk of my tap water is 37 and my pH is a whopping 10.

Plugging those numbers into the coalogy calculator returns a HUGE difference between the simple and complex calcs. By the simple method(x1.22), the return is 45.1. By the complex method, the return is 23.

It would seem, if the calculator is correct, that pH does make a big difference.

PS: Norton 360 reports that "Nine Ball" is piggy backing that link.
Hmmm. That pH is insane. I thought I heard palmer say on brewstrong that nobody's pH is above 9 and if it was then...something something. Sure wish now that I remembered what that something was. Anyways I think I'll put that calculation in the spreadsheet, but before I do I want to look into a couple things first. Stay tuned.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -TH- View Post
If you are talking about mash pH, I kind of intentionally left that off because I chose to use the Residual Alkalinity value to determine and show the right range for the color in order to bring the mash pH into the proper range (5.2 to 5.6 @ mash temp). I could have used/shown the "100% base malt mash pH" instead/also but I think for most people that concept is too confusing.

The pH calculator in BreWater appears to be only for figuring acid adjustments? Mine figures those into the RA number.

Your assumption about the boil additions is exactly right.
Nah. I was just thinking of a titration tool. Starting pH to Target pH = XmL Acid. You know, for a ball park estimate. This way I'd only need to have one page open. I tried to cut and paste from Palmers but there are links in there to a hidden "scratch" page or s'thing (I haven't taken the time to figure out the links basically).

It's cool, I'll figure s'thing out. If you add everything it'll get cluttered like Palmers and the others.

As for the HCO3 calculator, I just cut and paste the calc to a new worksheet.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by -TH- View Post
Hmmm. That pH is insane. I thought I heard palmer say on brewstrong that nobody's pH is above 9 and if it was then...something something. Sure wish now that I remembered what that something was. Anyways I think I'll put that calculation in the spreadsheet, but before I do I want to look into a couple things first. Stay tuned.
This is the highest I have ever seen it. However, it usually hovers around 9.2 to 9.3. I am fortunate enough to get copy of the water chemistry analysis from the city lab on a monthly basis.

Curious what that "something something" is.
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