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Old 09-04-2009, 06:04 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by -TH- View Post
This is from the instruction page of Palmer's worksheet. It should clear things up:

Here is where the chloride to sulfate ratio is useful to help choose which salts to use in adjusting the RA. If you are intending to brew a hoppy beer, use sulfate salts to move the balance to Bitter or Very Bitter. If you are intending to brew a malt dominated beer, then use chloride salts to move the balance to Malty or Very Malty. Alternatively, you can use a combination of chloride and sulfate salts to keep the character Balanced.
Yup, exactly - target the style of the beer. You can certainly make all of the water profiles "balanced", but that doesn't help accentuate the target style in any way.

Just be sure to stay within the recommended range for SO4. Too much and you're IPA may be darn near undrinkable...
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
There doesn't seem to be an increase in Cl- when I add some HCl to lower the alkalinity, for a low SRM beer. Doesn't this contribute Cl-to the adjusted water?

By Palmer's Sheet, I am balanced for Cl/SO4 when adding HCl, and Cl- changes. I see no change in ppm of Cl in EZ, and the ratio does not change, leaving my result unbalanced.
His only adjusts if there is a number greater than zero in the "est. Acid Only Mash Addition (ml)". For that number to be greater than zero, you have to enter a "target RA" that is lower than your starting RA (according to his cell formula). If not, that number stays 0 and the spreadsheet won't adjust CL for the HCL addition. I think he was just looking at the wrong cell by mistake and should have been checking if the "HCL Mash water addition" cell was above zero to determine if CL should be adjusted (if you look at his formulas you might see what I'm trying to say here).

Anyways I'm thinking the CL should be adjusted for HCL no matter what so I fixed mine to do that. It has now been re-uploaded (v1.1).
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:31 PM   #23
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TH with this new ver 1.1 something has changed. All the other sheets (incl. ver 1.0)and software say my beers should be very bitter without any additions. When I plug in my #'s on your sheet now they tell me I'l balenced. Can you verify?

Ca - 19.2
Mg - 16.3
Na - 23.2
SO4 - 40.6
Cl - 12.4
HCO3 - 52.1

Thanks!

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Old 09-04-2009, 07:42 PM   #24
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Yep, same here. I go from bitter to now very malty

Ca - 34
Mg - 12
Na - 11
SO4 - 32
Cl - 18
HCO3 - 144.6


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Old 09-04-2009, 07:52 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Kilted Brewer View Post
Thanks -TH-. A lot less "cluttered" than the Palmer version.

Question to all...On the Very Bitter - Very Malty scale...Is it wrong to say that we are aiming towards balanced with all brews? It would seem that we can have a hoppy/bitter brew that is still "balanced" and vice-versa on the malty side.
I'm very new to this so maybe I'm looking at this wrong. but as I understand my own water profile (without additions) I would be brewing very bitter beer. I use the spreadsheets to move that to a range of bitter/malty that fits into the BJCP style guide. For example if I was brewing a American wheat which is described as "slightly malty" I would adjust my water profile that is very bitter to a malty one by additions of Calcium Chloride and some Gypsum. (amounts will vary). But if I wanted to brew a east coast pale ale with is very bitter I may only has to adjust with a little gypsum and not change the bitterness of my water.

But, as I said before, I'm very new at water profiles and this is only my understanding of it as of today. might change tomorrow!
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:49 PM   #26
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TH with this new ver 1.1 something has changed. All the other sheets (incl. ver 1.0)and software say my beers should be very bitter without any additions. When I plug in my #'s on your sheet now they tell me I'l balenced. Can you verify?

Ca - 19.2
Mg - 16.3
Na - 23.2
SO4 - 40.6
Cl - 12.4
HCO3 - 52.1

Thanks!
SORRY! I left a "2" in the HCL ml addition. Make that Zero and you should be back to the way you were.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:50 PM   #27
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Snafu - the calculator @ brewersfriend has you at highly bitter.

Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend

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Old 09-04-2009, 11:46 PM   #28
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This doesn't have much to do with this specific spreadsheet, but I have three comments about the flavor profile based on the sulfate:chloride ratio. This is all based on my experiments.

First, even though most people call it "malty vs. bitter" I think it is more accurate to think about it as "malty/sweet vs. bitter". Part of this is related to my second point, but I prefer to think of the chloride (and even Palmer uses this wording) as emphasizing flavor - not just malty characteristics. Malty is one attribute of flavor, but so is sweetness. And sweetness and malty are not the same thing, although malty is often used to mistakenly describe sweetness (as detailed in Brewing Classic Styles).

Second, when you change the ratio you have two things working together - and it is important to think about this when you are adjusting your water. The sulfate emphasizes bitter and the chloride emphasizes flavor. If you go high on sulfate and low on chloride, not only are you bringing out the bitterness but you are also lessening the taste of the malty/sweet flavor. Likewise, if you go high on the chloride and low on sulfate you are emphasizing malty/sweet flavor and lessening the taste of bitterness.

But here is the curve ball - remember that in addition to the ratio of the two you are also controlling the individual dosage of sulfate and chloride. So regardless of the ratio the levels of each mineral will still have an effect. For example, with a high dosage of both sulfate and chloride, even if there is a 1:1 ratio, will be different than a low dosage of both with a 1:1 ratio. The same concept applies even when the ratio is not 1:1. If you have a 2:1 ratio with low dosage, it will be different than a 2:1 ratio with a high dosage, and vice-versa.

Lastly, because of the second point, you need to take think of your water as a part of your recipe - and think about the contribution it will have on the intended flavor. This is really important.

For example, I made a beer than should have been high in flavor (malty/sweet) and low in bitterness. However, my sulfate:chloride was about 3:1 - which is exactly the opposite of what you would want. But in addition to the backwards ratio, the levels of chloride were very low. Not only did the beer come out very bitter, but it also had very little flavor. This was due to the double whammy of low chloride in the water, but also the low chloride ratio.

Now, on a different beer that should have also been malty/sweet and low bitterness, I went to a 1:2 ratio of sulfate:chloride, but also increased the levels of chloride. The effect was dramatic. There was lots of flavor and very low bitterness.

So, it is clear that the water profile effects flavor, but here is the reason to think about it in the context of your recipe. In the second example where the water was targeted to provide a malty/sweet flavor and low bitterness, I also independently adjusted the IBU through the amount of hops to the lower end of the style range because that I like more malty/sweet and less bitter. However, I did this without consideration of the water adjustments I had made - not thinking of the water as a part of the recipe. After tasting the beer it was very very sweet and very low in bitterness. I highly suspect that I had made a double adjustment for malty/sweet - one coming from the water and one from the IBU adjustment. Personally I loved it, but it made me realize that I need to think of the water profile as a contributor to flavor just as much as the hop additions or the grain bill.

Hopefully that was clear.

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Old 09-05-2009, 01:08 AM   #29
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^^^ Excellent post boredatwork. Very valuable.

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Old 09-05-2009, 01:08 PM   #30
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that was awsome bored! Makes me feel i'm on the right tract, but still have alot to learn. I think what would help some of the folks here as well as myself would be some kind of power point or video where someone would actually use a typical water profile and show exactly how (how much) additions you would make for a few certain types of beers. I seem to recall there are limits to how much you should add to a 5 gal batch (1 tsp?) It was in one of the many books I have.

I'm excited about this stuff, I've been brewing for years and although I have a pretty good feel for my equipment and the process. This is the final frontier that will make a hugh impact on the finished product. I just went to AG brewing this summer and although I've been reducing the hop bitterness for my own personal taste it was still bitter (because of water). I actually didn't sleep all that well because I can't wait to try it out this weekend!

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